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Old 07-05-2004, 04:03 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Oregoropa
I don't think a person has to have a shred of religious faith in your blood to agree that "late term" abortions are wrong.
Then, as the saying goes, if you are against abortion, then don't have one!

I'm opposed to it personally, as well, but, as a matter of politics, I must admit complete ambivalence. I don't care one way or another, but I tend to vote against self-professed "pro-life" candidates, because they tend to have a whole slew of other offensive positions.

Likewise, what do you think about all the "pro-life" politicians being pro-death penalty for the most part? I don't think a person has to have a shred of religious faith in your blood to agree that the "death" penalty runs contrary to "life."

As usual, none of this is about morality or consistency; it's about maintaining the ideology one identifies with. Funny, in spite of the fact that Jesus stopped people from stoning a woman ("Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."), Jesus was also the victim of the death penalty--an innocent man condemned to death. And yet, conservatives still have the bloodlust of a Pharisee, while trumpeting "pro-life." The only reason they care is because their political party, the GOP, is "pro-life." Because the GOP is for the death penalty, they would never dare challenge the hypocrisy of it.

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Old 07-05-2004, 04:25 PM   #17
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Another pro-choice person here. I'm sorry, but I just feel the choice should remain available. If a woman doesn't want to have an abortion, then that's totally fine and I gladly support her choice to do something else-she's doing what she feels is the right thing for her and her future child. But if she chooses to have an abortion, I won't condemn her for that choice-she has her reasons, and I just don't feel it's my place to judge or tell her what to do.

So, yeah, to Kerry's quote. If he's personally against abortion, that's cool, he's got his reasons. But he also understands that his views can't be forced on everyone else, and I personally think that's good that he's willing to respect others' beliefs.

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Old 07-05-2004, 05:04 PM   #18
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Originally posted by melon


Likewise, what do you think about all the "pro-life" politicians being pro-death penalty for the most part? I don't think a person has to have a shred iof religious faith in your blood to agree that the "death" penalty runs contrary to "life."


Melon
Exactly why I refuse to use the terms "pro life" and "pro choice!" By the same standard, a lot of "pro choice" people love to cover up what abortion actually is with the term "choice," yet they would deny others "choices" such as the right to own guns, the right to smoke in public, the right not to wear your seat belt in your car, etc. So what is it? It's only a 'choice' if it's something you defend?

I am for the terms Pro and Anti Abortion, and if anyone isn't comfortable with those labels maybe you need to reconsider your position.

As for not 'judging' someone, is it judging someone to haul someone off for killing their husband? It's the same thing to me, killing is killiing, dead is dead. I cannot respect any 'right' that deals with robbing another of their life.

When does life begin? It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a preacher. It has nothing to do with religion to me. It only makes sense that if something is growing bigger and developing every day, it is alive. I will never forget seeing my first baby on the ultrasound at 8 weeks. I saw her heart beating! I was never pro abortion anyway, but at that point, it was more than sealed for me. Nope, sorry, I cannot respect that not everyone feels that way. Life is life and should be protected, just as murder is against the law. It's not only a baby if it's convenient to you at the time, it is a baby!

I love my best friend's bumper sticker- it says "If it's not a baby, you're not pregnant!"
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Old 07-05-2004, 05:27 PM   #19
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Originally posted by U2Kitten



I am for the terms Pro and Anti Abortion, and if anyone isn't comfortable with those labels maybe you need to reconsider your position.

Personally I'm not going to have an abortion for birth control reasons, but
if my daughter, wife, or anyone for that matter was raped and got preagnant or was facing life threatening problems with their preagnacy then yes I think they should have a choice to have an abortion. So yes I understand Kerry's quote. I would never consider myself pro-abortion.
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Old 07-05-2004, 05:33 PM   #20
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
I am for the terms Pro and Anti Abortion, and if anyone isn't comfortable with those labels maybe you need to reconsider your position.
Pro-choice and pro-abortion are not synonymous. To describe someone as pro-abortion implies they believe abortion is inherently a good thing and is inevitably the best solution to an unplanned pregnancy. To be pro-choice is to believe that abortion is one of a range of options available to a woman and to defend her right to make her own decision as to which option she will choose. It is absolutely not a belief that abortion is the best of the available options or that abortion should be forced upon women.
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Old 07-05-2004, 06:04 PM   #21
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
Exactly why I refuse to use the terms "pro life" and "pro choice!" By the same standard, a lot of "pro choice" people love to cover up what abortion actually is with the term "choice," yet they would deny others "choices" such as the right to own guns, the right to smoke in public, the right not to wear your seat belt in your car, etc. So what is it? It's only a 'choice' if it's something you defend?
Personally, I wouldn't deny anyone those choices. If they want to drive without a seatbelt, keep a gun, or smoke in public, that's entirely up to them.

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Originally posted by U2Kitten
I am for the terms Pro and Anti Abortion, and if anyone isn't comfortable with those labels maybe you need to reconsider your position.
Well, I'm not comfortable with that, simply because of what was already stated. I'm pro-choice. If a woman chooses to go through with her pregnancy and put it up for adoption, I will support that choice. If a woman chooses to go through with the pregnancy and keep her baby, I will support that choice. And if a woman chooses to not go through with her pregnancy, and has an abortion instead, I will support that choice. Whichever of the three choices a woman makes is fine by me, so long as none of those three women, or anyone else, tries to impose their choice on someone else. If a woman wants an abortion, people shouldn't force her to think differently, and if a woman wants to keep her baby or put it up for adoption, nobody should force her to think differently.

Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
As for not 'judging' someone, is it judging someone to haul someone off for killing their husband? It's the same thing to me, killing is killiing, dead is dead. I cannot respect any 'right' that deals with robbing another of their life.

When does life begin? It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a preacher. It has nothing to do with religion to me. It only makes sense that if something is growing bigger and developing every day, it is alive. I will never forget seeing my first baby on the ultrasound at 8 weeks. I saw her heart beating! I was never pro abortion anyway, but at that point, it was more than sealed for me. Nope, sorry, I cannot respect that not everyone feels that way. Life is life and should be protected, just as murder is against the law. It's not only a baby if it's convenient to you at the time, it is a baby!
There's no doubt that it's a living thing, it obviously has to be if it's going to develop into a baby. But it's not a fully developed baby from the moment it's conceived. In fact, in the very beginning stages, it's basically a group of cells. I don't mean that to sound cold or anything, but that's basically what it is.

As for the husband bit...even that can have iffy moments with it in some people's eyes. For instance, if a woman were to kill her husband because he was abusive to her, or cheating on her, or something along that line...some people out there would actually support that.

Angela
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Old 07-05-2004, 06:31 PM   #22
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I'm against compulsory seatbelt laws. FYI, a Republican governor and Republican Congress passed a compulsory seatbelt law in Michigan, so don't assume it to be a solely liberal demand. But just to note, I wear a seatbelt anyway.

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Old 07-05-2004, 08:01 PM   #23
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A part-time faith doesn't make sense to me. Even so, no President has "imposed" their faith on the country on a broad scale. We've had a number of Christian Republican Presidents and abortion is still as available as ever.
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Old 07-05-2004, 09:02 PM   #24
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Pro-choice and pro-abortion are not synonymous. To describe someone as pro-abortion implies they believe abortion is inherently a good thing and is inevitably the best solution to an unplanned pregnancy. To be pro-choice is to believe that abortion is one of a range of options available to a woman and to defend her right to make her own decision as to which option she will choose. It is absolutely not a belief that abortion is the best of the available options or that abortion should be forced upon women.
I was comparing it to Melon saying if someone is pro life, a term for anti- abortion, and they support the death penalty or mercy killings they are hypocrites. I was saying the same thing applies to pro choice, if you believe in denying other choices to a person, you are a hypocrite too. I realize it's an anesthetic and neat little term to cover up what abortion actually is, but it is a weak one to me. Both pro life and pro choice are very hypocritical and ridiculous names for their positions and I refuse to use them.

If you approve of someone having an abortion for any reason, you are pro abortion, meaning in favor of allowing someone to have their child killed for their own convenience, whether you like it or not. You have to accept that or change your position. Stop covering up what it really is because you don't want to think about it!

I will never, never believe that someone 'choosing' is more important than a life.

I think one of the big problems I have with abortion is that birth control is so easy to obtain, and it comes in so many varieties, I have a hard time believing there are that many 'accidents'. I do believe a lot of people are using it for birth control. or trying to get pregnant for a reason and then 'change their mnd' when things don't work out. Life is not disposable, it's not a game you can reset.
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Old 07-05-2004, 11:20 PM   #25
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Originally posted by wolfeden
''I oppose abortion, personally. I don't like abortion. I believe life does begin at conception.
i always find statements like these perplexing. if he believes life truly starts at conception, then doesn't that mean that abortion killing off something? i could see his statement making some sense if his beliefs on when life begins were solely religious or spiritual reasons, but if he believes there is some sort of scientific backing to support life beginning at conception, don't those "lives" deserve the same rights as every other living american?
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Old 07-06-2004, 09:48 AM   #26
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If you approve of someone having an abortion for any reason, you are pro abortion, meaning in favor of allowing someone to have their child killed for their own convenience, whether you like it or not. You have to accept that or change your position. Stop covering up what it really is because you don't want to think about it!
Then I guess the cop who kills in the line of duty out of self-defense is pro-murder? It's not always black and white. I had a close friend who had an abortion to save her life. If abortion was illegal she may not be here.
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Old 07-06-2004, 10:59 AM   #27
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Not all abortions are a matter of "convenience." While there may well be some women who can ask for an abortion like you or I might order a sandwich, abortion is, I believe, often a very heartwrenching decision and sits in the midst of a host of lousy choices for women unprepared, for whatever reason, to have children.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: If you want to get serious about creating a "culture of life" in this country, you have to create an environment in which women with unplanned pregnancies are supported in every possible way to have their babies. Top-flight, government subsidized day care. Better employment and post-secondary education programs. Comprehensive, long-term, universal health care for mothers, children, and people everywhere. Better schools. The list goes on and on, but most often, poor women, with little or no support from partners, friends, or family and an uncaring government and broad society, will unfortunately choose abortion more likely than not.

And I ask you all: Could you do it? Could you go through with a pregnancy knowing that both you and your child would likely live at a level of poverty that ought to embarrass every living American? Could you go through with it, knowing that you would be looked down upon as the mother of a child born out of wedlock, knowing that you would be labeled a "welfare mom" and that your child a "bastard"?

It would take a lot more than a simple law outlawing abortions to create a "culture of life." And a law enacted to ban abortions, without that accompanying culture in place, would do very little to stop abortions from taking place. Women who really wanted them would go back to have unsafe, illegal abortions as they did before Roe v. Wade. Witness the "war on drugs"--has it stopped anyone who really wants drugs from getting them? Not so much. The same would happen with abortion.
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:10 AM   #28
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It reminds me of a Catholic HS in the area I used to live in, and I'm sure that most are not too different from this mold. If you got pregnant, you were shut out of school when you started showing and, hence, missed several months of school as "punishment." But, if they found out you had an abortion, you'd be expelled. However, either way, I'd say the advantage would be having the abortion; if no one is told about it and you have it secretly, who would know? The alternative--missing months of school and getting looked down upon for having a baby--is little different than the alternative to having an abortion.

And isn't that the irony? Those who are anti-abortion, out of principle, do very little besides scream for abortion to be illegal. But it certainly won't stop the reasons why women are having them to begin with.

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Old 07-06-2004, 02:24 PM   #29
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Not all abortions are a matter of "convenience." While there may well be some women who can ask for an abortion like you or I might order a sandwich, abortion is, I believe, often a very heartwrenching decision and sits in the midst of a host of lousy choices for women unprepared, for whatever reason, to have children.
Sorry, not a subscriber to the old 'better off dead' theory.

Quote:
I have said it before and I'll say it again: If you want to get serious about creating a "culture of life" in this country, you have to create an environment in which women with unplanned pregnancies are supported in every possible way to have their babies. Top-flight, government subsidized day care. Better employment and post-secondary education programs. Comprehensive, long-term, universal health care for mothers, children, and people everywhere. Better schools. The list goes on and on, but most often, poor women, with little or no support from partners, friends, or family and an uncaring government and broad society, will unfortunately choose abortion more likely than not.


Sounds like socialism to me. Sorry, I don't believe the government has to pay for everything before a child's life is worth something. If they did all that, isn't that just the same as being on 'welfare?'

Quote:
And I ask you all: Could you do it? Could you go through with a pregnancy knowing that both you and your child would likely live at a level of poverty that ought to embarrass every living American? Could you go through with it, knowing that you would be looked down upon as the mother of a child born out of wedlock, knowing that you would be labeled a "welfare mom" and that your child a "bastard"?
Ahem. Yes, I have. All except the bastard part. But even that doesn't make much difference anymore, there is almost no stigma left for out of wedlock kids. My Mom and aunties bemoan this all the time- no one has any shame anymore! they say, because there are so many 'bastards' it's not a big deal or a disgrace anymore.

Perhaps because I have lived 'at that level', it has shown me that life is more than material things, and death is not preferrable to a less than good life! Are you saying that a kid is better off dead if it isn't born into a perfect home and a family with money? Then millions around the world, including me and my kids, might as well be dead already. Sorry, I find that bit a little offensive, because I have been so poor, but I survived. You college girls, yuppies and happy suburbanites must think all of us below you are better off dead!

There have been many people from such backgrounds who have used their hardship to rise above it and become great and famous. On the other side, there have been millionaire's kids who have ended up dead of drugs in a gutter. MONEY IS NOT EVERYTHING! It should not determine who lives and dies or who is worthy of a life!

Quote:
It would take a lot more than a simple law outlawing abortions to create a "culture of life." And a law enacted to ban abortions, without that accompanying culture in place, would do very little to stop abortions from taking place. Women who really wanted them would go back to have unsafe, illegal abortions as they did before Roe v. Wade. Witness the "war on drugs"--has it stopped anyone who really wants drugs from getting them? Not so much. The same would happen with abortion.
I agree the war on drugs is a stupid waste that has done no good. But all those 'back alley' abortions you hear about mostly took place before the days of The Pill. With contraception so common as easy to obtain (Even free at the health dept. for the poor!) there should be far less unwanted pregnancies than there were in those days. Perhaps if there were limits on abortion some people would be more careful. Hey, I'm a woman, I know it's not all that easy to get pregnant, and it's easy to avoid without much trouble at all!

BTW, I never said there shouldn't be exceptions for extreme cases of threat to the mother's life. I have a friend who is just as anti-abortion as I am who had to have emergency surgery for a burst fallopian tube due to a tubal pregnancy. Some people told her that was an abortion, but come on, it wouldn't have lived anyway, it couldn't grow in a busted tube, and she would have bled to death!

But again, 98% of all US abortions are NOT due to rape, incest or heath reasons.

Also remember, papers all over the country are full of ads from infertile couples begging to adopt a baby!
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Old 07-06-2004, 02:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
I think one of the big problems I have with abortion is that birth control is so easy to obtain, and it comes in so many varieties, I have a hard time believing there are that many 'accidents'. I do believe a lot of people are using it for birth control. or trying to get pregnant for a reason and then 'change their mnd' when things don't work out.
mm.

no.
my apologies to you, but you are being a little too overzealous with the finger pointing from up there on your high horse. I spent several years volunteering as security for a women's health center -- that did a lot more than just abortions -- and in those trenches is where I learned the truth. I suggest you do the same, you might get your eyes opened.

You do understand that there are still many, many companies and general employers in the US that do not cover birth control of any type under their health insurance? Not the Pill, not the shot, not an IUD, not the rods in the arms. NOTHING. Neither will they cover termination of pregnancy.
(but they will cover Viagra.. hmm...)

You do understand that the failure rate of condoms (and other OTC methods such as spermicidal foam, female condoms, etc,) quite high when used as the sole method of birth control?
(To quote an OBGYN of my acquaintance -- "I have a name for women who count on condoms to prevent pregnancies.... 'mommies'....")

You do understand that schools in many areas of the USA (and the world) are denied federal funding to educate children about how to prevent pregancy and STDs, in favor of preaching an abstinence-only agenda that is known to be next to useless?

I'd like to see the scientifically based, independently certified statistics upon which you base your belief that there are women using a painful, invasive, emotionally wrenching, social stigma-laden, EXPENSIVE medical procedure as a convenience tool, please.
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