Senator Clinton Defends Faith Based Solutions

[Macfistowannabe]

The only reasoon that I ventured that question was that there are many out there who will grill a pro-US foreigner like they are an aberation because they are so entrenched in their ideology that they believe that the rest of the world doesn't like Bush.

It's a tough camp to be in, my friend.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I should just state that the rest of the world both loves and hates Bush with the overwhelming majority in western nations disliking him for various reasons.

 

[diamond]

It's a tough camp to be in, my friend.

this forum is child's play to us veterans.

db9

 

[nbcrusader]

And I am a hardcore supporter of separation of church and state. Believe what you want, but DO NOT EVER EVER EVER try to impose your beliefs on me using the legal system as a catalyst.

Whose beliefs should we be imposing??

 

[A_Wanderer]

Compared to the year that I spent in a media studies class learning about how Michael Moore was brilliant this is an ultraconservative forum.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Whose beliefs should we be imposing??

Mine.

 

[joyfulgirl]

oops

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Compared to the year that I spent in a media studies class learning about how Michael Moore was brilliant this is an ultraconservative forum.

I had to challenge myself to ask this...

But what did you learn in that class? What did you get out of it?

 

[A_Wanderer]

I learned that 90% of media studies is bullshit language and the other 10 percent is divided between obvious facts and pure speculation. Needless to say when I decided my final years studies in High School it was: English, Maths, Physics, Chemistry and International Relations.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

 

[drhark]

What's this about Hillary or other politicians moving to the left, to the center, to the right to win an election? There was a lot of talk about Kerry eeding to move to the center during the recent campaign. I don't get it. Isn't a candidate supposed to stand for what they believe in? To "move to the center" don't you have either abandon your principles or lie?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

That's an interesting point. Obviously, the left isn't winning enough elections where they currently stand. I can't say that they're abandoning too many liberal principles, but moderating them in attempts to appeal to undecided voters and one-issued republicans. It's what they're doing to get votes, and that's how they're doing their job.

 

[Do Miss America]

What's this about Hillary or other politicians moving to the left, to the center, to the right to win an election? There was a lot of talk about Kerry eeding to move to the center during the recent campaign. I don't get it. Isn't a candidate supposed to stand for what they believe in? To "move to the center" don't you have either abandon your principles or lie?

Isn't this what W did with the first election and his "compassionate conservative"? His claiming that had many die-hard conservatives up in arms and concerned(apparently they don't like compassion).

 

[verte76]

Some Democrats want to move to the center a la Jimmy Carter in 1976 after the 1972 McGovern fiasco. When McGovern lost in 1972 it was the biggest landslide in U.S. Presidential history. I do not have the numbers but Nixon got close to 80% of the vote in some conservative parts of the country, including my own state, Alabama. When the Democrats decided to move to the center, they changed the kind of Democrat they nominated. Carter was seen as a more moderate candidate, he was a Southerner, he was a practicing Southern Baptist, and they thought that's what they needed to win. It worked in 1976, but just barely, and it was flawed because of Carter's limitations. It's all about the quality of the nominee. Since our election campaigns last eight months, only independently wealthy people can run. This really pisses me off. We're not getting the best people in either party. We're getting the best fund-raisers and the people with money. It's a rip-off of the whole country.

 

[drhark]

So in the Carter instance, the party voters chose a more moderate candidate but that candidate didn't change his views. It seems to me that Kerry tried this political maneuvering and the Republicans dug up quotes that contradicted his new stances, allowing him, whether you agree or not, to be effectively labeled as a flip-flopper.

 

[strannix]

Kerry didn't lose because he failed to capture the center. He actually won the moderate vote, 54-45, a bigger margin than Gore. Not many people know that.

The problem for Kerry was that more voters identified themselves as conservatives than in 2000. Simply put, the center isn't as big as it used to be. Trying to win by moving there is a big loser of a strategy.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Kerry had quite a liberal voting record in his legislation. First, he's for something, but now he's running against it. It hurt him more than it would've helped him if he just stuck with his original stances. I think it could've anyways.

 

[verte76]

So in the Carter instance, the party voters chose a more moderate candidate but that candidate didn't change his views. It seems to me that Kerry tried this political maneuvering and the Republicans dug up quotes that contradicted his new stances, allowing him, whether you agree or not, to be effectively labeled as a flip-flopper.

Correct. Carter didn't change his views. Also, he was a state governor and these guys are more successful in Presidential campaigns than Senators and Congressmen are. To a certain extent Kerry changed with the context, but his voting record was basically that of a moderate liberal. He started his Senate career during the latter part of the Cold War, then the Soviet Union fell apart and there was the innocence (naivite, perhaps) of the "Peace Dividend Years", and then the wake-up call of 9/11.

 

[strannix]

First, he's for something, but now he's running against it.

Urban myth....

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Not to shift into a particular subject, but to give you an example.

In 1996, Kerry voted NO on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
Personally believes marriage is between a man & a woman. (May 2004)
Defense of Marriage Act is fundamentally ugly. (Apr 2004)

So why did he run against gay marriage?

Kerry staunchly resists restrictions on abortions. (Apr 2004)
Partial-birth abortion ban undermine women's right to choose. (Nov 2003)
Against partial-birth abortion but there are exceptions. (Oct 2004)
Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)

Urban myth indeed. John Kerry has a very consistent voting record, that's pretty much a fact.

 

[strannix]

Well, for one thing, I don't think it's fair to say that he "ran against gay marriage". He never made any proposal that I'm aware of that would have made his policy law, and as you pointed out, he voted against such a policy when he had the chance.

For another thing, I don't know if there was anything really contradictory about Kerry's stance on gay marriage. There's a difference between being opposed to something personally, and wanting that something be legally banned. I don't smoke and I would advise people I know not to smoke, but I would oppose banning cigarettes. Is that inconsistent? Same thing with Kerry and gay marriage, from what I can tell.

And anyway, if you're offering this as an example of something that hurt Kerry, I'd beg to differ. His stance was identical to Bush's - no gay marriage, civil unions OK. And Bush made much more of a flip-flop than Kerry to arrive at that stance, as he earlier supported the constitutional amendment that would have banned civil unions.

I don't know if there's anything inconsistent with his stance on partial birth abortion, either. He said he wanted exceptions, and he voted against the bill when such exceptions were not included. But I'd appreciate it if you could provide citations for the positions from April 04 and Nov 03 - I wonder if they're accurately paraphrased.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/John_Kerry.htm
http://www.issues2000.org/George_W__Bush.htm

Seems very accurate to me, unless there is something you care to correct.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Another note, nothing on there was said about Bush "banning civil unions", if you can provide a credible source for that, it would help contribute to our discussion.

 

[drhark]

When Kerry said he opposed gay marriage, I didn't believe him. I think he was hiding his true views to get elected. Just my opinion.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Mine too.

 

[strannix]

http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/John_Kerry.htm
http://www.issues2000.org/George_W__Bush.htm

Seems very accurate to me, unless there is something you care to correct.

Thanks.

As I thought, the line that "Kerry staunchly resists restrictions on abortions" is highly suspect. As it turns out, it's not something that Kerry said at all; it's simply a line from his biography, provided without context. Did they mean that he resisted restrictions throughout his career? Or just in one instance? Were they talking about all restrictions, or just a certain set that came up for vote? Impossible to say without having a copy of the book present, which I don't.

Another note, nothing on there was said about Bush "banning civil unions", if you can provide a credible source for that, it would help contribute to our discussion.

We agree that he supported the constitutional ammendment, correct? Here is the original version of that amendment:

"Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman.
Neither this constitution or the constitution of any state, nor state or federal law, shall be construed to require that marital status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups."

 

[strannix]

When Kerry said he opposed gay marriage, I didn't believe him. I think he was hiding his true views to get elected. Just my opinion.

It's certainly possible. Of both candidates.

 

[financeguy]

Very positive comments

Hillary knows how to get red state votes

Yeah, I agree. Hilary is a political slut who will sell her own soul to get any votes available. In other words, she is no different from any other politicians.

More importantly - and I would love if someone would answer this for me - since when did the United States "convert" from a secular republic to a Christian theocrary?

 

[nbcrusader]

More importantly - and I would love if someone would answer this for me - since when did the United States "convert" from a secular republic to a Christian theocrary?

Why would you think this? Because a politician mentions faith?

 

[financeguy]

No, because most of the founding fathers weren't Christians. Christianity has used the noble ideals of the founding fathers to suit its own power games.