Sen. Dick Durbin

[Dreadsox]

The silence over his comments is deafening.......

Thoughts....

Praise.....

Criticisms....


The number 2 democrat speaks.....and not a single Democrat chastizes him?

Shame on the Dems....

 

[melon]

I work in news, and, yet, I haven't a clue as to what he said. Care to fill me in?

Melon

 

[A_Wanderer]

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime—Pol Pot or others—that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here—I almost hesitate to put them in the RECORD, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:

On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. ..... On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2005_record&page=S6594&position=all

I just figured that most people agreed with him.

 

[echo0001]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...637500.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hedGood for Durbin.

He needs no chastizement.

He had every right to make the comments he made.

The mistreatment of prisons cannot be overlooked, excused or down played just because it's us who's doing it.

I see nothing wrong with Durbin's comparisons, either. Since similiar abuses and mistreatment occurred under Nazi, Soviet Communist or other regimes, then there is grounds for Durbin comparisons. Abuse of prisoners is abuse of prisoners.

I am grateful to Dick Durbin for having the courage to make a stand, and take an opportunity to try and make America see it's mistakes.

 

[melon]

Since we don't like being called "Nazis" or whatever the fascist word of the day is, is what we did in keeping with what we'd expect from repressive regimes?

Personally, I'm currently swimming in a pool of apathy, so I don't care to formulate an opinion. I'm hoping everyone here with a strong opinion one way or another can make their case. Just forget the "Nazi/Soviet/Pol Pot" semantics for a moment, if we can. Is what the FBI agent reported consistent with what we'd expect from an undemocratic nation that we'd love to slap sanctions on? In other words, if Iran did the above, would we make a big deal about it or just say, "Oh well"? Apparently, the GOP is more than willing to say "oh well."

Melon

 

[Rono]

I hear the governments reply already. *you can be glad that you are living in a country where a FBI agent can report this *

 

[deep]

 

[BonosSaint]

For the past two days, it's been the only story of note on right wing radio. Hour in and hour out over two paragraphs. I neither agree nor disagree with him. When Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity make this big deal over a story, I figure it's another nonissue meant to cloud the real issues.

 

[A_Wanderer]

In WW2 Roosevelt authorised millitary tribunals for captured Axis spies, individuals captured out of uniform were executed and on the eastern front neither side adhered to conventions and there were mass executions all around.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

I know I'm cold and heartless but this part of the quote made me LOL for some reason.

 

[Dreadsox]

Nazi Germany - 6 Million Killed
Soviet Union - 20 million Killed
Pol Pot - 2 million killed

----------------------------------------------

Guantanao - 0 Killed


Man we have some catching up to do!

 

[verte76]

The treatment of the inmates is pretty appalling, but I find the comparison to Pol Pot excessive. Pol Pot liquidated millions of his political opponents. While my government is certainly doing things of which I don't approve they're not murderous genocidal maniacs. Durbin's heart is in the right place as far as not approving of everything going on in the camp, but his rhetoric is excessive.

 

[financeguy]

Nazi Germany - 6 Million Killed
Soviet Union - 20 million Killed
Pol Pot - 2 million killed

----------------------------------------------

Guantanao - 0 Killed


Man we have some catching up to do!

Vietnam

Iraq

Hiroshima

Nagasaki

 

[A_Wanderer]

Vietnam ~ 2 - 4 million civilian deaths total from all sides.

Iraq ~ 500,000 in and between the two wars with US involvement. Including the sanctions related deaths.

Hiroshima ~ 80,000 civilians outright, 239,000 with long term radiation associated deaths.

Nagasaki ~ 39,000 outright, 100,000 with radiation associated deaths.

It seems that the US can't beat the those other guys when it comes to killing civilians, even during wars when it can use all those bombs and bullets it just can't seem to get the numbers up.

 

[deep]

----------------------------------------------

Guantanao - 0 Killed

and this is based on what?

 

[Boston01]

it seems like most people think these interrogation tactics should not be utilized. that seems to leave us with the option of asking politely for the information we require. i am sure that would be a successful intelligence venture.

what bothers me the most about this story is the derogatory nature that is not only targetting the current administration, but also the soldiers staffing the facility. there are proper channels for Mr. Durbin to direct his concerns. there is a chain of command within the government and military. apparently, he is more concerned with political frenzy. his comments are both demoralizing and dangerous to the troops currently in the field.

i fully respect all opinions regarding our actions post 9-11. I do not respect anyone who criticizes the people who die for our freedoms.

 

[melon]

Again, everyone has avoided my point. Forget the "Nazi/Pol Pot," etc. for a moment. If Iran was using all these same interrogation tactics, would we just say "that's okay" or would we want to blow them up too?

Melon

 

[Dreadsox]

Vietnam

Iraq

Hiroshima

Nagasaki

Funny....having made most of my 6,000 posts in this forum....

I have been here for Vietnam, Iraq, Hiroshima, Nagasaki debates. Not what this thread is about. Not even close to the same circumstances.

A politician has associated the soldiers of the US as being the euivalent of three of the most horrific events in the last century.

I have a problem with that. It's not historically accurate....nor is it in the same ballpark.

 

[Dreadsox]

Again, everyone has avoided my point. Forget the "Nazi/Pol Pot," etc. for a moment. If Iran was using all these same interrogation tactics, would we just say "that's okay" or would we want to blow them up too?

Melon

Not avoiding your point. There is a difference when a political party within a country is making such accusations against his own, verses criticizing another nation.

 

[Se7en]

I do not respect anyone who criticizes the people who die for our freedoms.

are you suggesting that members of the military are beyond reproach, regardless of their actions?

and melon- your point is interesting. the likely reponse will be, "but these aren't uniformed combatants, etc."

 

[melon]

Not avoiding your point. There is a difference when a political party within a country is making such accusations against his own, verses criticizing another nation.

Well, the biggest problem of that, though, is that if we can't criticize, then we risk losing our moral authority to criticize other nations.

I mean, seriously. Are you listening to some of the responses from the government? "There are proper channels to complain...blah blah blah." In other words, it's all about encouraging the American public to be nothing more than cheerleaders with blind faith in their leadership. Sorry...I'm one of those people who believes that the leadership should have to answer to us, not the other way around. BTW, does that comment seem familiar to anybody?

Melon

 

[Boston01]

are you suggesting that members of the military are beyond reproach, regardless of their actions?

and melon- your point is interesting. the likely reponse will be, "but these aren't uniformed combatants, etc."

your supposition of what i might or might not think is completely baseless. as a former military officer i realize absolutely the need for order and justice. the UCMJ was written for this purpose. the point is that none of these politicians, left or right, should be toying with peoples lives for political gain. mr. durbin should have gone through the proper channels to correct the situation in cuba if he had absolute evidence to support his premise. he did not. he took the path of least resistance which was completely filled with self-interest.

 

[Boston01]

Well, the biggest problem of that, though, is that if we can't criticize, then we risk losing our moral authority to criticize other nations.

I mean, seriously. Are you listening to some of the responses from the government? "There are proper channels to complain...blah blah blah." In other words, it's all about encouraging the American public to be nothing more than cheerleaders with blind faith in their leadership. Sorry...I'm one of those people who believes that the leadership should have to answer to us, not the other way around. BTW, does that comment seem familiar to anybody?

Melon

melon, i actually agree with most of your post, but the fact is that we are a government with a hierarchical leadership. mr. durbin as a citizen has the right to say anything he feels...as i do. i think there is an absolute need to be vigilante with the use of our power so it is not abused. mr. durbins comments were just rediculous. i dont think following the rules makes you a "blind cheerleader" at all.

 

[Se7en]

your supposition of what i might or might not think is completely baseless.

it was really more of a question than a supposition, as indicated by the question mark.

 

[echo0001]

what bothers me the most about this story is the derogatory nature that is not only targetting the current administration, but also the soldiers staffing the facility. there are proper channels for Mr. Durbin to direct his concerns. there is a chain of command within the government and military. apparently, he is more concerned with political frenzy. his comments are both demoralizing and dangerous to the troops currently in the field.

In the face of an organized Republican brouhaha over his remarks, Durbin refused to back down. He maintained that the Bush administration bears responsibility for creating the conditions that led to the mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo by saying they were not subject to the Geneva Conventions.

One of the most 'proper channels' for a Senator to use to address the faults and failings of the current administration is the floor of the Senate.

Or has the President started distributing a nice little handy-dandy oh-so-official complaint form to members of Congress?

 

[Dreadsox]

The silence on the part of democrats is deafening. I will bet that comments like this become an issue in the midterm elections....and while these types of comments will mobilize the left base of the party.....

They will push centrist democrats into the republican camp.

THese comments do NOTHING to help the democratic party, and make them look like extremists.

 

[anitram]

They will push centrist democrats into the republican camp.

THese comments do NOTHING to help the democratic party, and make them look like extremists.

Dread,

Do you think a centrist is gonna go running into the arms of a party which is still obsessed with a corpse that had a shriveled up brain and was blind for 15 years? And despite the fact the public now believes only 19% of Congress represents their values, this particular party is prattling on about whether, even though this corpse was really a corpse, perhaps it got that way because a husband watched his collapsed wife on the floor for 70 minutes 15 years ago?

Let us call a spade a spade. If we are talking extremism, then no moderate is running to Republicans.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that that is an oversimplification, just reading the right blogosphere there is a whole range of opinions on the matter with the more mainstream with most of them in favour of going with the courts on it.

If the centrists move away from the Democratic Party then the Republican strategists will inevitably pick them up. It would impossible for the Republicans to be controlled by the so called "religious right" if they lack the demographics. Democracy it would seem is a great way of keeping it in balance.

 

[anitram]

I absolutely cannot believe that a centrist would rather vote Conservative than Democrat. And I say that as a person who would not vote for either party.

The face of the conservative party are right wing extremists.

The face of the democratic party are pretty much a bunch of spineless politicians.

I abhor both, but it would be a cold day in hell before I would vote for a party which believes that politics should be the Church's business.

 

[A_Wanderer]

How could you win an election if you cannot appeal to the electorate; most of whom are not extremists. Centrists and moderates consistently do vote for conservative parties when they deliver outcomes that they desire.

Most people; and I would venture a lot if not most Republicans found the Schiavo meddling out of line. Trying to overrule a court decision with your political clout violates seperation of the powers and I think that most people find that wrong.

Those who are bringing Christianity into the mix are in my own opinion wrong. They are trying to exert their religious social controls via government and I certainly would not vote for them. Thank goodness that Australia has a system where our conservatives are of the strictly non-religious variety.