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Old 06-18-2005, 08:58 AM   #16
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it seems like most people think these interrogation tactics should not be utilized. that seems to leave us with the option of asking politely for the information we require. i am sure that would be a successful intelligence venture.

what bothers me the most about this story is the derogatory nature that is not only targetting the current administration, but also the soldiers staffing the facility. there are proper channels for Mr. Durbin to direct his concerns. there is a chain of command within the government and military. apparently, he is more concerned with political frenzy. his comments are both demoralizing and dangerous to the troops currently in the field.

i fully respect all opinions regarding our actions post 9-11. I do not respect anyone who criticizes the people who die for our freedoms.
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Old 06-18-2005, 10:11 AM   #17
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Again, everyone has avoided my point. Forget the "Nazi/Pol Pot," etc. for a moment. If Iran was using all these same interrogation tactics, would we just say "that's okay" or would we want to blow them up too?

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Old 06-18-2005, 10:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Vietnam

Iraq

Hiroshima

Nagasaki

Funny....having made most of my 6,000 posts in this forum....

I have been here for Vietnam, Iraq, Hiroshima, Nagasaki debates. Not what this thread is about. Not even close to the same circumstances.

A politician has associated the soldiers of the US as being the euivalent of three of the most horrific events in the last century.

I have a problem with that. It's not historically accurate....nor is it in the same ballpark.
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Old 06-18-2005, 10:49 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Again, everyone has avoided my point. Forget the "Nazi/Pol Pot," etc. for a moment. If Iran was using all these same interrogation tactics, would we just say "that's okay" or would we want to blow them up too?

Melon
Not avoiding your point. There is a difference when a political party within a country is making such accusations against his own, verses criticizing another nation.
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Old 06-18-2005, 10:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boston01
I do not respect anyone who criticizes the people who die for our freedoms.
are you suggesting that members of the military are beyond reproach, regardless of their actions?

and melon- your point is interesting. the likely reponse will be, "but these aren't uniformed combatants, etc."
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Old 06-18-2005, 11:13 AM   #21
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Not avoiding your point. There is a difference when a political party within a country is making such accusations against his own, verses criticizing another nation.
Well, the biggest problem of that, though, is that if we can't criticize, then we risk losing our moral authority to criticize other nations.

I mean, seriously. Are you listening to some of the responses from the government? "There are proper channels to complain...blah blah blah." In other words, it's all about encouraging the American public to be nothing more than cheerleaders with blind faith in their leadership. Sorry...I'm one of those people who believes that the leadership should have to answer to us, not the other way around. BTW, does that comment seem familiar to anybody?

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Old 06-18-2005, 03:00 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Se7en


are you suggesting that members of the military are beyond reproach, regardless of their actions?

and melon- your point is interesting. the likely reponse will be, "but these aren't uniformed combatants, etc."
your supposition of what i might or might not think is completely baseless. as a former military officer i realize absolutely the need for order and justice. the UCMJ was written for this purpose. the point is that none of these politicians, left or right, should be toying with peoples lives for political gain. mr. durbin should have gone through the proper channels to correct the situation in cuba if he had absolute evidence to support his premise. he did not. he took the path of least resistance which was completely filled with self-interest.
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Old 06-18-2005, 03:08 PM   #23
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Originally posted by melon


Well, the biggest problem of that, though, is that if we can't criticize, then we risk losing our moral authority to criticize other nations.

I mean, seriously. Are you listening to some of the responses from the government? "There are proper channels to complain...blah blah blah." In other words, it's all about encouraging the American public to be nothing more than cheerleaders with blind faith in their leadership. Sorry...I'm one of those people who believes that the leadership should have to answer to us, not the other way around. BTW, does that comment seem familiar to anybody?

Melon
melon, i actually agree with most of your post, but the fact is that we are a government with a hierarchical leadership. mr. durbin as a citizen has the right to say anything he feels...as i do. i think there is an absolute need to be vigilante with the use of our power so it is not abused. mr. durbins comments were just rediculous. i dont think following the rules makes you a "blind cheerleader" at all.
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Old 06-18-2005, 05:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boston01
your supposition of what i might or might not think is completely baseless.
it was really more of a question than a supposition, as indicated by the question mark.
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Old 06-18-2005, 06:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boston01


what bothers me the most about this story is the derogatory nature that is not only targetting the current administration, but also the soldiers staffing the facility. there are proper channels for Mr. Durbin to direct his concerns. there is a chain of command within the government and military. apparently, he is more concerned with political frenzy. his comments are both demoralizing and dangerous to the troops currently in the field.


Quote:
In the face of an organized Republican brouhaha over his remarks, Durbin refused to back down. He maintained that the Bush administration bears responsibility for creating the conditions that led to the mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo by saying they were not subject to the Geneva Conventions.

One of the most 'proper channels' for a Senator to use to address the faults and failings of the current administration is the floor of the Senate.

Or has the President started distributing a nice little handy-dandy oh-so-official complaint form to members of Congress?
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Old 06-18-2005, 08:38 PM   #26
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The silence on the part of democrats is deafening. I will bet that comments like this become an issue in the midterm elections....and while these types of comments will mobilize the left base of the party.....

They will push centrist democrats into the republican camp.

THese comments do NOTHING to help the democratic party, and make them look like extremists.
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Old 06-18-2005, 08:59 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


They will push centrist democrats into the republican camp.

THese comments do NOTHING to help the democratic party, and make them look like extremists.
Dread,

Do you think a centrist is gonna go running into the arms of a party which is still obsessed with a corpse that had a shriveled up brain and was blind for 15 years? And despite the fact the public now believes only 19% of Congress represents their values, this particular party is prattling on about whether, even though this corpse was really a corpse, perhaps it got that way because a husband watched his collapsed wife on the floor for 70 minutes 15 years ago?

Let us call a spade a spade. If we are talking extremism, then no moderate is running to Republicans.
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Old 06-18-2005, 09:15 PM   #28
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I think that that is an oversimplification, just reading the right blogosphere there is a whole range of opinions on the matter with the more mainstream with most of them in favour of going with the courts on it.

If the centrists move away from the Democratic Party then the Republican strategists will inevitably pick them up. It would impossible for the Republicans to be controlled by the so called "religious right" if they lack the demographics. Democracy it would seem is a great way of keeping it in balance.
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Old 06-18-2005, 09:20 PM   #29
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I absolutely cannot believe that a centrist would rather vote Conservative than Democrat. And I say that as a person who would not vote for either party.

The face of the conservative party are right wing extremists.

The face of the democratic party are pretty much a bunch of spineless politicians.

I abhor both, but it would be a cold day in hell before I would vote for a party which believes that politics should be the Church's business.
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Old 06-18-2005, 09:39 PM   #30
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How could you win an election if you cannot appeal to the electorate; most of whom are not extremists. Centrists and moderates consistently do vote for conservative parties when they deliver outcomes that they desire.

Most people; and I would venture a lot if not most Republicans found the Schiavo meddling out of line. Trying to overrule a court decision with your political clout violates seperation of the powers and I think that most people find that wrong.

Those who are bringing Christianity into the mix are in my own opinion wrong. They are trying to exert their religious social controls via government and I certainly would not vote for them. Thank goodness that Australia has a system where our conservatives are of the strictly non-religious variety.
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