Sen Boxer official signs the challange to contest the Ohio vote

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nbcrusader said:


Not surprisingly, you accept these stories as fact. What is painfully missing is the appropriate legal action if these "facts" had any merit.

Repreatedly pressing the accusations (especially with the last minute dramatic efforts of Ms. Boxer (nice tears)) reek far more of ignorance and partisanship than any kind of concern for integrity or fairness.

Another empty dismissal. Try to change the subject to Boxer's tears all you want. But all the personal attacks on Boxer don't hide the fact that you aren't responding to the matter at hand.
 
strannix said:
Another empty dismissal. Try to change the subject to Boxer's tears all you want. But all the personal attacks on Boxer don't hide the fact that you aren't responding to the matter at hand.

Ignore the lack of appropriate legal action over the last 10 weeks and keep waiving the unsubstantiated blog reports as fact all you want. You aren't responding to the matter at hand.
 
nbcrusader said:


Ignore the lack of appropriate legal action over the last 10 weeks and keep waiving the unsubstantiated blog reports as fact all you want. You aren't responding to the matter at hand.

And what exactly is the matter at hand in your eyes? That Barbara Boxer cried fake tears?

I don't know what you are talking about when you cite no legal action. There was a lawsuit filed by the Ohio Dem Party on Election Day regarding the long lines. This article references "multiple legal actions" by people challenging the vote count, including one pending before the Ohio Supreme Court. You'll notice that neither link is to a blog.
 
strannix said:


And what exactly is the matter at hand in your eyes? That Barbara Boxer cried fake tears?

I don't know what you are talking about when you cite no legal action. There was a lawsuit filed by the Ohio Dem Party on Election Day regarding the long lines. This article references "multiple legal actions" by people challenging the vote count, including one pending before the Ohio Supreme Court. You'll notice that neither link is to a blog.

thanks, stannix. :applaud:
 
Please read the link strannix added about legal actions. This isn't just about the 8-hour lines. The whole reason Boxer did this was to bring light to problems with voting such as:

-- the fact that the Ohio Secretary of State, who is in charge of the vote, is a Republican and chair of the Ohio Bush campaign. Would you trust your Kerry vote in a partisan's hands?

-- the fact that the Diebold company is based in Ohio and the head of the company said he would deliver a vote for Bush.

-- the fact that Diebold machines have NO paper record. How do you recount if a computer loses it's memory? How do you recount if there is no way to verify the machine wasn't tampered with? At least with optical scan machines, there are pieces of paper that are scanned and can be checked later. Not so with Diebold.

-- there were more people registered in some counties than there were residents of some counties.

So by doing what Boxer did, she could bring more attention to possible reforms:

-- non-partisan Secretary of States who cannot chair a presidential run [some states already have this]
-- paper records of votes. Diebold also makes ATM machines that spit out receipts. They can do the same for voting machines.
-- national registration or registration tied to social security numbers based on addresses on tax ID forms. Eliminates need to register just to and eliminates corruption due to multiple voting.

As for Boxer waiting this long, if any of you read up on the issue, you would know that she did this as a protest on the day the election was to be fully certified by Congress. By voicing her objection, she forced the House and Senate to debate for two hours each the problems that arose from voting in November to put pressure on Congress to pass better election reform. After Florida four years ago, we shouldn't be having these problems now.
 
Typically, cases are decided in the courts where their merit is evaluated and acted upon. Boxer only wanted to parade the issue before the court of public opinion.
 
nbcrusader said:
Typically, cases are decided in the courts where their merit is evaluated and acted upon. Boxer only wanted to parade the issue before the court of public opinion.

Courts make decisions based on existing laws. Congress creates the laws. Some of these issues go far beyond the borders of Ohio, which is why this is not a court issue but a Congress issue.

And yes, she used her position to bring light to this issue and put it before the court of public opinion. What's wrong with that? If the American people want paper records of all votes, non-partisan Sec. of States, etc., those in Congress should act on the concerns of their constituents. Everyone seems to be forgetting that Boxer got involved by signing off on a protest logged by a Ohio representative. If her constituents didn't feel their voices were heard, she has a right to stand up. And Boxer represents a state that has mostly Diebold machines so this is an issue for her as well.
 
Wow, some people here are being pretty hard on an elected official who actually shows up for important votes and represents the people who elected her the best way she knows how.

:|
 
When the candidate feels it is not worth the fight....it says something about the challenges.
 
He wanted to stay out of it not to ruin any later election. I think he was a coward.
As a resident of Ohio and a member of Election protection, I'm proud of Sen. Boxer and thankful that a Senator would stand up for the voters in this country and not roll over like in 2000.
 
Ohio Letter Seeks Illegal Contributions


Jan 8, 3:02 PM (ET)

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - The state's chief elections officer, accused of mishandling the presidential vote in Ohio, sent a fund-raising letter for his own 2006 gubernatorial campaign that was accompanied by a request for illegal contributions.

A pledge card with the letter from Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, a Republican who co-chaired the Bush-Cheney election campaign in Ohio, said "corporate & personal checks are welcome."

Corporate donations are illegal in Ohio.

His spokesman, Carlo LoParo, said Saturday that any corporate donations would be returned.

Blackwell said the request sent to GOP donors and activists was an oversight. His campaign's fund-raising coordinator, Jeff Ledbetter, blamed a printer for the mistake, saying it used a template for an issue committee, which is allowed to accept corporate donations.

Ledbetter told The Columbus Dispatch that no corporate donations had been received in response to the letter.

Blackwell's letter also praises Republicans for helping deliver Ohio to President Bush.

U.S. Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., who prepared a report on election problems in Ohio, said the letter supports suspicions that Blackwell's actions as secretary of state during the election "stemmed from partisan political motivations" to help Bush.

Conyers said in a statement that the letter "evidences Secretary Blackwell's poor judgment at best, and the manipulation of election administration for partisan purposes, at worst."

A group of voters citing fraud has challenged Bush's 118,500-vote win in Ohio with the state Supreme Court, citing irregularities including long lines, a shortage of voting machines in minority precincts and problems with computer equipment.
 
What is the American voting population supposed to think of a party that cries for a recount after every presidential election they lose? I have a lot of respect for John Kerry because he not only conceded in a reasonable matter of time, but he left behind a message that we needed to hear. That message was about bringing this country back together, red, white, and blue (I'm referring to independents and third-party voters as "white" here). It was a very uplifting speech, and definately one of the best political speeches of the year in my opinion.

As for the existence of "non-partisan" Secretaries of State, I don't think that can be accomplished, sorry to say. I think everyone here is partisan, at least to some degree. I too dream of a world that can put its differences aside, but that will most likely stay a dream instead of a reality.

If Kenneth Blackwell did in fact break a law, I would like to see him face consequences. I would like to ask Deep where he found his article. Not as a cynic, but just out of curiousity.
 
Non-Partisan and activley being the head of Bush's Reelection campaign while serving as Sec. of State in charge of the election is a whole other matter.

Deep's article was also in my local paper.
Mansfield News Journal. I read it online yesterday also.
 
This article relly states what we acheived with this challenge. It was not sour grapes, it was about fixing problems for the future, that wasn't done after 2000.

http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1447

1. The topic of election fraud has been forced into the corporate media. Reporters wanting to write about it now have a "hook." They can report on it now in the way they could have two months ago if Senator John Kerry hadn't crawled under his bed to hide. Sure, much of the media today treated the story as one of "political theater" and "grandstanding Democrats," but until now the story had not been there at all.
http://ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1398
Now the Democrats have the opportunity to explain why fighting for Democracy is the only decent thing to do, even when success seems unlikely.

2. We now have solid evidence that a political party can challenge a stolen election without causing national trauma of the sort Kerry tried to protect us from by conceding. Most Americans are not now in agony over the tensions felt on January 6th in Congress.

3. We have demonstrated that a grassroots movement of minorities and progressives can mobilize around an issue completely blacked out of the media and move US Senators to act. The reason Barbara Boxer stood tall today, while not even Paul Wellstone would do so four years ago, is that four years ago there was no massive grassroots lobbying effort. Nobody was holding "Boxer Rebellion" demonstrations at Boxer's offices four years ago. There were no hearings and bus rides, telephone and fax campaigns, nothing like what we've seen for the past two months. We also lacked the leadership that Congressman John Conyers has shown, but Conyers will be the first to say he couldn't have done this without a movement behind him. The rally Thursday morning across from the White House (report and photos here:
http://ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1445 )
was a celebration of success against the odds, of accomplishment in the face of scorn and ridicule with only justice and determination to keep people going. There will be momentum coming out of this for supporters of democracy all over this country.

4. A coalition has begun to form and to feel its power. Cliff Arnebeck of Alliance for Democracy and Common Cause Ohio told me Thursday morning that the way the Cleveland AFL-CIO worked with the white public interest crowd and the black civil rights folks on this issue is matched by the way the Ohio state AFL-CIO is working with these groups in opposition to a Republican proposal in Ohio to eliminate campaign finance limits. Labor, Arnebeck said, is one of the three key parts of a coalition that must be built nationally.

"Labor has to be viewed as a public interest organization," he said. "Every organization has its own selfish interests. But the labor union movement stands for democracy and not for benefiting a small elite, but for the vast majority - not for this CEO club. It's going to come together…This will revitalize all three movements."

5. The Democratic Party has put its toes into the water of actual opposition to the Republicans. Today ended any remaining credibility for another presidential nomination for Kerry -- and probably for any other senators who did not voice their support for Barbara Boxer's challenge. Those who did not speak today will have to campaign against that record, as Kerry campaigned against his vote for Bush's war. The Democrats have begun to emerge as a second party in what has often seemed a one-party or duopolistic system. More power to them. It's up to us to keep this ball rolling by urging aggressive action on election reform and all other issues. The Democrats have started to copy Republican brashness. If they can cease copying Republican policy positions, there may be hope for them yet. Reid announced that he would introduce an election reform bill in a few days.
 
excellent posts, scarletwine :up: :yes:

There is a new funding-raising letter for Mr. blackwell, he wants to run for some other office.
In it he 'boasts' that he 'delivered ohio ofr Bush' so he's an effective Republican.

Please note also that the 3 Major voting maching making corporationsn are owned by, have software-writers by people in the following movements and are also helped by the most virulent part of the right-wing Christian movements the Christian Reconstructionists and the Dominiansts.

People, anyone who consideres themselves a Christian who's peaceful [& does thier best to be]AND believes that all human beings are worthly of a at least a deccent life i hope would/will check out the net to understand how utterly cruel and against Jesues's teachings from the Sermon on the Mount these people ARE, and how they are getting more and more power in the Republican Party and in Bush's administration. Please take some time at some point....especially those like me in the North who may be familiar with more wide-spread racist groups like neo-nazis & NAAWP, & aryan nation but not these Even further that that biggot Christian/evagialist Pat Robertson and he felow ministers..
 
Macfistowannabe said:
What is the American voting population supposed to think of a party that cries for a recount after every presidential election they lose?

What is the American voting population supposed to think of a Secretary of State who chairs the campaign of a person who wins the presidential vote and not two months later sends out a letter that violates two major campaign finances rules and claims he is the reason the president is in the White House?

And while no state has a partisan secretary of state, California lawmakers are looking into passing a law to do just that -- it's not impossible. And even without going that far, states can at least make a law saying the Sec. of State can't chair a political campaign for any office such as president. I can only see a law like that helping.
 
As I mentioned earlier, if the Sec of State violated the rules, he should be brought to justice. Still, I doubt this challenge will change anything regarding the election results. I don't deny that there may have been schemes on either side, but I've heard a lot of accusations and insinuations since November 3, 2004.

I live in Ohio. On November 2, I went to two different election polls and there were no problems at all (before you accuse me of voting twice, I had to drive my girlfriend to her voting poll :eyebrow: :wink:). Of course I don't live in Franklin County or Columbus, so I have no idea what Boxer is talking about. I can imagine that certain areas in states like New York and California were worse off than we were as far as people leaving the polls out of frustration, but of course it's not an issue because those states primarily vote with no contest, and they are not swing states.
 
U2democrat said:
ok even i have moved on. they need to move on too. there are other battles to be fought.
:applaud: and:sexywink: to U2Democrat.

I had an entire post going over this but it has nothing compared to this, the wheel never stops turning so lick your wounds and come back better and stronger than ever.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
I live in Ohio. On November 2, I went to two different election polls and there were no problems at all (before you accuse me of voting twice, I had to drive my girlfriend to her voting poll :eyebrow: :wink:). Of course I don't live in Franklin County or Columbus, so I have no idea what Boxer is talking about. I can imagine that certain areas in states like New York and California were worse off than we were as far as people leaving the polls out of frustration, but of course it's not an issue because those states primarily vote with no contest, and they are not swing states.

Are you a republican?
Did you vote in a county [or precint] that is Majority Republican.....?

If so...please go back and reread my earlier post on 50-50% statistics...almost ALL the counites were there were voting problems....all of the errors fell on the Democrats side! THAT is considered extremely unlikely by statistians!
 
dazzledbylight said:


Are you a republican?
Did you vote in a county [or precint] that is Majority Republican.....?

If so...please go back and reread my earlier post on 50-50% statistics...almost ALL the counites were there were voting problems....all of the errors fell on the Democrats side! THAT is considered extremely unlikely by statistians!


Be sure to verify race too! This was an all-encompassing conspiracy.....
 
dazzledbylight said:


Are you a republican?
Did you vote in a county [or precint] that is Majority Republican.....?

If so...please go back and reread my earlier post on 50-50% statistics...almost ALL the counites were there were voting problems....all of the errors fell on the Democrats side! THAT is considered extremely unlikely by statistians!
I am a republican voter, but my county is fairly liberal-leaning. Roughly 57% of my county's population is liberal. I didn't say anything about all the errors falling on the democrats' side, and I honestly have no clue why my posts brought you to believe that I did. Kerry won my county, if that makes you happy.
 
Why would he concede so quickly if he thought he was robbed out of the election?

This is of course assuming that he feels this way. He didn't challenge this the day after the election.

"In Democratic districts, it took people four, five, 11 hours to vote, while Republicans [went] through in 10 minutes. Same voting machines, same process, our America," Kerry said.

Again, I live in a liberal county in Ohio, and yet I have not a clue what brought him to this conclusion.
 
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