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Old 06-02-2004, 11:50 PM   #91
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Originally posted by Dreadsox

I am not about to go into how I have reached my conclusions....
Thats kewl. You are entitled to keep your reasoning to yourself.

But without this reasoning, to me, you come off as a doomsayer. Im sure you already know that and just like playing the devils advocate.
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Old 06-02-2004, 11:55 PM   #92
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I find nothing funny about your characterization of my posts. Not playing devils advocate on this topic.

It is no different than asking NBC to speak in here about a case he is working on for his law firm. I am not going to get into specific information about children I have taught,

Characterize my response anyway you like. It is not funny to me.
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Old 06-02-2004, 11:56 PM   #93
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I believe fathers are attached. In the event of an abortion its basically the mother who would have to make the heartaching decision. The father can agree or disagree but the mother is the one that authorises the procedure. At least it is over here, and reading Klaus' posts sounds like it is in his country too.

Its the mother who has to live with the decision - regardless of whether it was a joint decision - shes the one that 'pulls the trigger'. And I dont believe its a decision that anyone would make lightly. Yes, a few people do, but most people I believe are a lot more caring/sharing than that.

Anyway, Im starting to repeat myself, so now is probably a good point to stop. I have said my peace.
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Old 06-03-2004, 12:01 AM   #94
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Gawd, I really must leave.

I never said your posts were funny, in fact I find them highly depressing. Not that my emotional reaction to your posts is relevant to the topic. Best I leave
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Old 06-03-2004, 05:04 AM   #95
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Originally posted by anitram
But you are essentially worried about advancements which would allow people to get a proper diagnosis at the right time. That is part of treatment, don't you agree? You can't really have it both ways
I think this is indeed the main issue

and to which conclusion this will lead you must have to do with how one views mankind and the decisions we make


I can't believe that even 1% of the decisions for abortions have been made out of some sense of selfishness
that would still be 1% too many, but that will be on these people's conscious
perhaps also on mine, but I'm not willing to stop IMO nessecarely advancements for this
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Old 06-03-2004, 06:45 AM   #96
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I think what dreadsox is saying is not that he's against medical advancements or early diagnosis of problems but only that in the case of babies it could lead to a Hitler-ish mentality of selective abortion to achieve 'perfect' babies, and that is a grim and chilling thought. Is this only in extreme cases of hideous deformality or life threatening problems, or do we get picky, the cleft palate, next maybe the nose is too big, the eyes are going to be the wrong color, wrong sex. Will there come a time when people can read the genetic code of the fetus, even get a computer printout of what it will look like, and have parents look at it and decide if it's worthy of giving a life, or their love?

That is very frightening to me, like a bad futuristic movie. I am not one to be able to leave things to people's consciences because some people don't have one and some can rationalize away quite a bit if they don't feel like living with guilt. That's why there are laws and rules against certain things in this world.
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Old 06-03-2004, 07:12 AM   #97
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Thank you Blueberry for putting it better than I have.
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Old 06-03-2004, 08:26 AM   #98
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
That's why there are laws and rules against certain things in this world.
that's why I already stated that there should be laws since we can't judge every individual state

but these laws and rules should be based on reality
and they should not only be based on what we fear might happen but also on what we hope that we may achieve
and the way some here imply that these advancements will almost inevitably lead to people having abortions because of the foetus having the wrong eye colour, and therefore these advancements will result in something negative instead of something positive, is something I can't believe in

if human kind was that sick to begin with then perhaps we should celebrate every abortion and hope for extinction soon
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Old 06-03-2004, 12:45 PM   #99
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Yep. I don't believe humans have ANY right to decide when to end another human life, period. Sorry, absolutely nothing will convince me otherwise. Playing God is the greatest and worst form of judgement, I think.
My problem with the "playing god" argument is that I wonder how far it can be extended. For example, is it playing god if a person with cancer decides they don't want to receive treatment which has only a small chance of success, when they know that without treatment they will certainly die? Is it playing god for a terminally ill person to specify that they don't want to be kept alive on life support when there's no chance of them recovering? Is it playing god for a 90-year-old person to refuse painful and debilitating medical treatment because they would prefer to have a few months of life with a good quality of life rather than another year of life suffering from constant pain and discomfort? Is a doctor playing god when they refuse to allow an alcoholic to have a liver transplant? Is the government playing god when they issue guidelines on who can receive certain medications?

Just out of curiosity, would you still say abortion is wrong in the rare instance where it's the only way to save the life of the woman? I'm only asking because you said absolutely nothing would convince you that humans have the right to end another life, and so I wondered if you think in this situation it's better that both the mother and child die, rather than saving the life of the mother.
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:03 PM   #100
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Maybe this is a topic for another thread....but I have yet to see any child that deserves a monthly check for having ADHD or Bipolar disorder. Sorry....after ten years of teaching, I see parents trying to make money off their kid.
I don't think you can make this generalization based on only your experiences. Sure there may be some parents who think that their child's disability is a way to make money, but I believe they're a tiny minority.

Bipolar disorder in particular can affect people in different ways. Obviously the people you refer to are able to manage their illness and live a 'normal' life, but that isn't true of everyone with bipolar disorder: there are many people who struggle to have anything resembling a 'normal' life and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to receive social security benefits in the same way people with other disabilities do.
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:45 PM   #101
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I don't think you can make this generalization based on only your experiences. Sure there may be some parents who think that their child's disability is a way to make money, but I believe they're a tiny minority.

Bipolar disorder in particular can affect people in different ways. Obviously the people you refer to are able to manage their illness and live a 'normal' life, but that isn't true of everyone with bipolar disorder: there are many people who struggle to have anything resembling a 'normal' life and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to receive social security benefits in the same way people with other disabilities do.
I was not making a generalization. I was speaking from the cases in which I have been involved. Nowhere did I say NO CHILD DESERVES BENEFITS. I too do not think it is unreasonable if it were essential. I understand this topic all too well......

My point for bringing it up is to show that since it is already grounds for social security (A good thing) it may be grounds in the future for an abortion, if technology advances to the point that these things can be identified in the uterus.
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Old 06-03-2004, 02:26 PM   #102
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


My problem with the "playing god" argument is that I wonder how far it can be extended.
I asked that question a few days ago and no one ever answered. I just don't understand what the criteria is for 'playing God.'
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Old 06-03-2004, 02:55 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


My problem with the "playing god" argument is that I wonder how far it can be extended. For example, is it playing god if a person with cancer decides they don't want to receive treatment which has only a small chance of success, when they know that without treatment they will certainly die? Is it playing god for a terminally ill person to specify that they don't want to be kept alive on life support when there's no chance of them recovering? Is it playing god for a 90-year-old person to refuse painful and debilitating medical treatment because they would prefer to have a few months of life with a good quality of life rather than another year of life suffering from constant pain and discomfort? Is a doctor playing god when they refuse to allow an alcoholic to have a liver transplant? Is the government playing god when they issue guidelines on who can receive certain medications?

They're all very good issues up for debate. I'm not pretending to have the answers to everything or to liken these decisions to something as everyday as picking out an outfit.

Quote:
would you still say abortion is wrong in the rare instance where it's the only way to save the life of the woman? I'm only asking because you said absolutely nothing would convince you that humans have the right to end another life, and so I wondered if you think in this situation it's better that both the mother and child die, rather than saving the life of the mother.
I'd NEVER say it's "better" for both a mother and child to die. Neither option is good. I don't think any human life is ever more worthy to live than any other. I'll only answer for myself and say that if and when I decide I want to be a mother, part of that decision is accepting the risks involved. I would do anything in my power to try and give the child the best life possible. Yes, I would hope that I would be willing to sacrifice my own life if that's what it came to. For me, that's part of what being a parent is all about. We always say stuff like "I'd walk through fire for you" or "I'd die for you", but would we?
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Old 06-03-2004, 03:07 PM   #104
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Would taking a life be playing God?
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Old 06-03-2004, 03:14 PM   #105
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


They're all very good issues up for debate. I'm not pretending to have the answers to everything or to liken these decisions to something as everyday as picking out an outfit.
I realize that, but you said you oppose abortion because you see it as "playing god" so my question was really whether you would consider any of those actions to be playing god as well?

Quote:
I don't think any human life is ever more worthy to live than any other. I'll only answer for myself and say that if and when I decide I want to be a mother, part of that decision is accepting the risks involved. I would do anything in my power to try and give the child the best life possible. Yes, I would hope that I would be willing to sacrifice my own life if that's what it came to.
But if the decision is between the mother having an abortion and both the mother and child dying (ie the mother dying and the child living isn't possible) then the idea of sacrificing your own life for someone else isn't really relevant. If it's a straight choice between either both mother and child dying or the mother having an abortion then I don't understand the idea that allowing both to die would be preferable.

In any case, wouldn't either decision there be playing god? Either decision involves choosing between life or death for the mother or child, and isn't playing god?
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