Sd#318

[Irvine511]

With our modern military - nukes aren't needed.

and maybe nukes weren't needed in 1945 either.

maybe they were a political action rather than a purely military action.

would these questions be allowed?

 

[INDY500]

Where are you going that you need to travel at 200 mph???

I must get you in a Dodge Viper and onto the Nordschleife section of the Nürburgring sometime.

 

[AEON]

AEON, is there room for dissent at all? Or are we all thinking alike in your Utopia?

I didn't say anything about removing the voting process.

 

[Irvine511]

I didn't say anything about removing the voting process.

but it is clear that freedom is subordinate to one specific set of values, yes?

 

[AEON]

but it is clear that freedom is subordinate to one specific set of values, yes?

Is there something wrong with a common set of values? And if the answer is "depends on the values" - I'd add, "Judeo-Christian values." (which can be a slightly moving target, but it certainly is as good a starting point as any).

Hollywood Values are what many are trying to instill as the common set of values. Because this will ulitmately lead to self destruction, I'm arguing for a better course.

 

[Irvine511]

Is there something wrong with a common set of values? And if the answer is "depends on the values" - I'd add, "Judeo-Christian values." (which can be a slightly moving target, but it certainly is as good a starting point as any).

Hollywood Values are what many are trying to instill as the common set of values. Because this will ulitmately lead to self destruction, I'm arguing for a better course.

i have taken a few classes in Buddhism lately, and i think there's a great set of values there. they are not Judeo-Christian values, but are possibly compaitble with them, and can definitely co-exist with them.

you're essentially saying that you don't believe in pluralism. that there must be one standard, one way of doing things, one understanding of right and wrong.

and just what societies does this remind us of?

 

[AEON]

you're essentially saying that you don't believe in pluralism. that there must be one standard, one way of doing things, one understanding of right and wrong.

Well, you asked me for an ideal.

 

[Irvine511]

Well, you asked me for an ideal.

can coexistence be an ideal?

(you've also never addressed the point you helped me make, that being gay is quite moral)

 

[AEON]

can coexistence be an ideal?

(you've also never addressed the point you helped me make, that being gay is quite moral)

Well, if one set of values blatanly contradicts another, I don't see how they can coexist (unless both sets of values are ignored)

 

[Irvine511]

Well, if one set of values blatanly contradicts another, I don't see how they can coexist (unless both sets of values are ignored)

or both sets of values agree to coexist.

are there really many "values" that blatantly contradict one another? i've done a fair bit of traveling, and the one thing i can justly say is that people are people. everyone's just trying to get through the day in the same basic way, work for the same basic things, and simply want to be happy and be with people they love. how are these not values? do we have to quibble over, say, montheism or polytheism or atheism or anti-theism? can't we just preserve the right of people to believe what they want, and be done with it?

 

[martha]

I didn't say anything about removing the voting process.

So if eventually the teaching of Judeo-Christian values is eliminated through a vote, where does that leave your country?

 

[AEON]

So if eventually the teaching of Judeo-Christian values is eliminated through a vote, where does that leave your country?

Something other than ideal.

 

[martha]

Like the one we have now.

 

[AEON]

Like the one we have now.

Umm. yes. Today the country is less than ideal.

 

[Irvine511]

Umm. yes. Today the country is less than ideal.

but maybe we wouldn't want an ideal.

ideals are, by definition, exclusionary.

i don't think i'd be allowed in your country, AEON. is that correct?

 

[AEON]

but maybe we wouldn't want an ideal.

ideals are, by definition, exclusionary.

i don't think i'd be allowed in your country, AEON. is that correct?

why would I not want you in my country? Are you an Islamic Fascist?

 

[Irvine511]

why would I not want you in my country? Are you an Islamic Fascist?

i'm a gay. does that correspond to your notion of judeo-christian values?

 

[AEON]

i'm a gay. does that correspond to your notion of judeo-christian values?

No. But I don't see the gay movement going around cutting off heads.

 

[Irvine511]

No. But I don't say the gay movement going around cutting off heads.

so where do your Judeo-Christian values begin and end? are your values only defined by being anti-Islamist fascist?

there's quite a slippery slope here when you start to say what people can do, rather than what they can't do.

for example, it's much better to say that people cannot chop off each others heads rather than say that they can only have Judeo-Christian values. likewise with sexuality. it's one thing to have a proscriptive notion of what sexuality should be -- married man and woman missionary style with the intention of children -- whereas it's something different to simply say that some aspects of human sexuality -- pedophelia -- are illegal. one is where you are telling people what the should do, what they must do, and what they can do; the other, you are telling them what they cannot do, and they are then thusly free to explore sexuality (or religion, or political thought, or hairstyles) on their own within parameters that have been agreed upon, however loosely, by society, and with built-in means of challenging such parameters in the form of courts and legislation.

 

[AEON]

so where do your Judeo-Christian values begin and end? are your values only defined by being anti-Islamist fascist?

there's quite a slippery slope here when you start to say what people can do, rather than what they can't do.

for example, it's much better to say that people cannot chop off each others heads rather than say that they can only have Judeo-Christian values. likewise with sexuality. it's one thing to have a proscriptive notion of what sexuality should be -- married man and woman missionary style with the intention of children -- whereas it's something different to simply say that some aspects of human sexuality -- pedophelia -- are illegal. one is where you are telling people what the should do, what they must do, and what they can do; the other, you are telling them what they cannot do, and they are then thusly free to explore sexuality (or religion, or political thought, or hairstyles) on their own within parameters that have been agreed upon, however loosely, by society, and with built-in means of challenging such parameters in the form of courts and legislation.

You asked me what would make an ideal country - and I quickly answered with 10 things that make the US that ideal country - or least they would be a good start.

 

[Angela Harlem]

oh man.

 

[BVS]

 

[financeguy]

The dream country is modern day America with a few tweaks.

1) return of American mythology - meaning, I think there is value in building up the lives of men like Washington, Jefferson, FDR, MLK. Keep them larger than life and hold them up as examples of courage and leadership.

2) allow Judeo/Christian ethics and morality to be taught in public schools. Secular Humanism is the current religion being taught and I think it is leading us down the wrong path.

3) removal of activist judges, both conservative and liberal.

4) an end to big oil and big auto as we know it. We are slaves to this outdated, robber barron system and I hate it. Electric cars are very patriotic

5) the banning and removal of Islamic Fascism.

6) extreme funding of green technology. The ROI will be worth it!

7) outlaw abortion (this is a brutal and barbaric practice - medical advances will only continue to reveal how truly awful this is)

8) mandatory 2 year service for every man and woman (can be military, peace corps, Red Cross...etc)

9) that we choose to reject the sewage that comes from Hollywood.

10) that our university teachers stop usuing their position to spread the hatred of America and Judeo/Christian values.

Any candidate, man/woman/black/white/Republican/Democrat/Independent, running on these basic principles, and he walks as he talks (i.e. integrity), is my ideal candidate

There's more to you that meets the eye, there's a bit of substance there.

I can sign up to quite a bit of this, and I now revise my earlier impression of you.

 

[phanan]

at the way this thread is going.

 

[martha]

I know. Those of us who are neither Judeo nor Christian are feeling a little as well.

 

[AEON]

I know. Those of us who are neither Judeo nor Christian are feeling a little as well.

It is understandable why you feel this way. I felt that way before I was a Christian as well.

 

[martha]

It is understandable why you feel this way. I felt that way before I was a Christian as well.

No, you don't understand. My consternation is about having no place in your Utopia. The specter of re-education camps is entering my mind.


I'm quite comfortable with my faith, thank you.

 

[MadelynIris]

So gang, what's your idea of an ideal conservative christian (besides a dead one?)

 

[anitram]

It is understandable why you feel this way. I felt that way before I was a Christian as well.

Oh good grief.

Yes, 5 billion people out there are living in daily misery.

 

[BVS]

So gang, what's your idea of an ideal conservative christian (besides a dead one?)

Maybe a little less arrogance(as we see above) and a little more humility, and a whole LOT more love.