Scientific M - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-23-2004, 04:25 PM   #16
Refugee
 
Pinball Wizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Electric Lady Land
Posts: 1,972
Local Time: 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
This is true. The medieval universities in Europe were founded by people who'd studied Muslim philosophers like Averroes. The only reason Europeans who started the schools in Europe were even able to get to the texts of Aristotle was that European scholars went to Spain and translated Aristotle from the Arabic to the Latin of the West. Yes, European Christian scholars worked with Arabic Muslim scholars in the twelfth century. It's been eight years since I did a paper on the origin of medieval universities and I'm a bit rusty. But they had a debt to Muslim scholarship. It's tough to forget something that significant. Unfortunately I've had a disk crash and a virus since I did that paper so I can't refer someone to it directly as it's not on file now. It would be if I had time to type 39 freaking pages of that damn thing.
Good post.

In as far as I've studied in the past, the Islamic element in Astronomy and educational organization is what I find most intriguing. The idea of a professor teaching a small group of pupils originated in what would appear to be community centres, or Madras (spelling may be different due to translation), and these places were built by followers of Islam. However, I don't think the intention was ever to lecture for crowds larger than the range of the teacher's voice (unmodulated)... if only that idea were put in practice today in many Western universities.

Sounds like an interesting paper verte
__________________

__________________
Pinball Wizard is offline  
Old 05-23-2004, 09:06 PM   #17
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:13 PM
I also had a whole slew of links to medieval Muslim scholarship sites and now I'm having to find the damn things over again courtesy of the recent virus. I've found most of my Turkish sites but I'm still looking for a few.
Viruses.
__________________

__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 09:26 AM   #18
Babyface
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 16
Local Time: 01:13 PM
I don't outbid on Islam. Islam a brilliant religion by itself and doesn't need any preaching or missionary work or me.

I really don’t like misunderstanding of my intentions in this post .It is not an assault on Christianity or any other religion. It is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.

We cay say there are so many sects, cults, religions, philosophies, and movements in the world, all of which claim to be the right way or the only true path to God. How can one determine which one is correct or if, in fact, all are correct? The method by which the answer can be found is to clear away the superficial differences in the teachings of the various claimants to the ultimate truth, and identify the central object of worship to which they call, directly or indirectly. Can we either claim that all men are Gods or that specific men were God or that nature is God or that God is a figment of man's imagination.
It may be argued that all religions teach good things so why should it matter which one we follow. I made some searching and I couldn’t find a sharp answer but I found something interesting stated in the Koran:
Creation-worship is the greatest sin that man can commit because it contradicts the very purpose of his creation. Man was created to worship Allah alone, consequently, the worship of creation, which is the essence of idolatry, is the only unforgivable sin. One who dies in this state of idolatry has sealed his fate in the next life. This is not an opinion, but a revealed fact stated by Allah in his final revelation to man

"Verily Allah will not forgive the joining of partners with Him, but He may forgive (sins) less than that for whom so ever He wishes"(Soorah An- Nisaa 4:48 and 116)

Buddha was a reformer who introduced a number of humanistic principles to the religion of India. He did not claim to be God nor did he suggest to his followers that he be an object of worship. Yet, today most Buddhists who are to be found outside of India have taken him to be God and prostrate to idols made in their perception of his likeness
__________________
salim2 is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 05:39 PM   #19
War Child
 
iacrobat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 585
Local Time: 02:13 PM
Salim2, what IS creation-worship?

You cannot strip away tradition, emotions and feelings, no religion exists in a bubble outside of everyday life.
__________________
iacrobat is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 07:29 PM   #20
Refugee
 
Pinball Wizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Electric Lady Land
Posts: 1,972
Local Time: 07:13 AM
I think you've misinterpretted what he's said. Hopefully this is what he means...

One of the precepts of Islam is that one who worships God can only do so accepting that God surpasses definition. In this manner, faith is based on something ephemeral... not something confined to an object or artifact. This is a theme relevant to most world religions... to manifest or question the divine is outside the context of human ability, which is a concept that gave rise to the taboo of idols, polytheistic worship (in JudeoChristian text), and even the blasphemy associated with using a name of God (the records of Moses, Mohammed, any of the prophets... exhibit this).

I think what Salim meant by creation-worship, was having faith in a human construction rather than an omniscient one.
__________________
Pinball Wizard is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 05:14 AM   #21
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by salim2
1. Islam is a religious lifestyle, not just a quick Sunday morning church visit and a label. Although some Christians do pray before each meal and spend much time with their Bible, etc.many don't in the USA. Islam is something that can't be shunted into a few spare hours. You pray five times a day. Your dress code is affected; even your food choices are explained in the Qur'an. Many converts like it because they feel actively involved and as if they are truly religious.
This is wrong, it's as wrong as saying "Christianity is a religion but islam is a cover for terrorism"

There are people who have a religious lifestile, no matter what's their religion or confession.

Quote:
2. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes. Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance. You buy a five-dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.
I don't see any law that forces Christian women to dress sexy.
They have the choice to dress as they want and they have the liberty to dresss sexy and still tell the men who see tham as easy dates that it's not the intension of their way to dress to get a date.
So what's the problem? it's simply free choice.

Quote:
3. Islam is also growing because many people are not satisfied with Christianity. They feel it is too liberal, too fluid and changes for the culture. Islam on the other hand is more rigid and does not as a whole allow much for modern changes and the whims of society. Many like it because they feel other religions have loose standards.
I just have to think of friends of me who live and work in iran. Last week they told me that 4 sisters who talked to them (because they were happy to have the chance to speak to people from a different culture) were captured by the religious police because of them.


So what i really love about our western world is the liberty and the free choice.
We are even allowed to change religion, citizenship etc.

And back to islam:
[Soorah an-Nisa (4): 171]
Quote:
So, “O People of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in you religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah Isa, son of Maryam, was a Messenger of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from Him so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: 'Three! Cease! better for you. For Allah is One Ilah, Glory be to Him above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.”
So we can easily see that it's the same god as long as we read Muhammed without the comments of Islamic priests.
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 09:17 AM   #22
Babyface
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 16
Local Time: 01:13 PM
Islam is frequently misunderstood and may even seem exotic in some parts of today's world. Perhaps this is because religion no longer dominates everyday life in Western society; whereas, for Muslims, Islam is life. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred.


Woman:

According to the Qur'an, men and women are equal before God; women are not blamed for violating the "forbidden tree," nor is their suffering in pregnancy and childbirth a punishment for that act.
Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings. A marital gift is given by the groom to the bride for her own personal use, and she may keep her own family name rather than adopting her husband's. Roles of men and women are complementary and collaborative. Rights and responsibilities of both sexes are equitable and balanced in their totality.
Both men and women are expected to dress in a way that is simple, modest and dignified; specific traditions of female dress found in some Muslim countries are often the expression of local customs rather than religious principle. Likewise, treatment of women in some areas of the Muslim world sometimes reflects cultural practices, which may be inconsistent, if not contrary, to authentic Islamic teachings.
The messenger of God said:
"The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."

For more info go to beconvinced site




Worship:

Islam is not a “religion” in the narrow sense used by secular humanists, in the west, but is the universal and eternal deen known through Prophets to every nation of people since the human race first began. This Islamic deen lays great emphasis on uncompromising monotheism and strict adherence to its creed and method of worship. It enjoins submission to the will of Allah and urges every person to follow as closely as possible the exemplary way of the life of Muhammad, the last of the Prophets and Messengers, peace be on them all.

Allah, the Exalted, created the universe and what is in it to express the truth that He is the one and only God. He created man and jinn only to celebrate His praise and worship Him. In His words signifying:

I have created the jinn and man only to worship Me.26

The method and form of worship are not left are not left to man’s option or choice. Allah is the One Who ordains and decrees all acts of worship and the means by which they must be observed. Since Islam deals with every aspect of life, spiritual and physical, its jurisprudence is based on a creed, instruction on worship, and ordinances regarding social, economic, and political aspects.

____________________________________________________

Science:

For more info go to:

islampedia
islamicity
islam-guide
____________________________________________________

ISLAMIC CONTRIBUTIONS TO SCIENCE


The Islamic empire in the early 6th. centuries were the inheritors of the scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it, and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own distinctive needs and ways of thinking (Hitti 363).
The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science proofs to be a first time in human thought that theology, philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude, considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the reason for such development of science is probably due to God's commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's contributions to science had covered many roots of thought including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth the contributions of the Islamic thinkers.
Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics (Hitti 373). About the year 600 A.H.-during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad - an Indian Muslim mathematician developed the symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD, revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4).
Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm" are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine" was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception (Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than 800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation, later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin... al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics" (qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574).
In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals including the zero is used in preference to letters by al- Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574).
Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy. One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined according to the position of the sun moving from east to west. The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the tenth century (King 46-48). As necessary to accurate timekeeping as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims:
The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King 547).
An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and Europe..." (King 544).
Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun, the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul. It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215). "The object is to determine the size of the earth and its circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti 375).
In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al- hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli. Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West) the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji, known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22 c3).
Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al- sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian Europe (Hitti 573).
The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 98). "When I found a difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the creator" (qtd. Osler 98). His book was long and lengthy, testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink, repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22).
The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al- Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of the contagion theory and said:
To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that the existence of contagion is established by experience, investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease, whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd. Hitti 576).
The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al- Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book, titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye) was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364).
The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher (Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti 369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5). "It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen, he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta. It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150).
Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al- Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical, legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310). This library contains books on all subjects-literature, specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic, philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183).
The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist, theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim - solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism, and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine Names and Attributes (Rahman 95).
The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al- Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo- Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer 99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography and Medicine (De Boer 105).
The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient world and set before them their scientific and cultural treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32).
Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:18). Some of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase " Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on.

Work Cited

Business Week 22 Jul. 1985, page 90-91

De Boer, D. T. J.History of Philosophy in Islam ,1933.
Translation by Edward R. Jones. London: Luzac & Company Ltd,
1970.

Fakhry, Majid. A history of Islamic Philosophy .New York and
London: Columbia University Press, 1970.

Hitti, K.Phillip. History of the Arabs.New York: St. Martins
Press, 1970

Khan, M.S. The Philosophy of Avicenna. Delhi: Motilal
Banarsidass, First Edition 1969.

King, A. David. Islamic Mathematical Astronomy .London: Varioum
Reprints, 1986.

Osler, Sir William. The Evolution of Modern Medicine. New Haven:
Yale University Press, 1921.

Quran. Translation by A. Yusuf Ali. Maryland: Amana Corp, 1983

Rahman, Fazlur. ISLAM. Chicago:The University of Chicago Press,
Second edition 1979

Science : The Islamic Legacy: Worlds fair issue, 1987

Sirasi, G. Nancy. AVICENNA in Renaissance Italy. New Jersey:
Princeton University Press, 1987.

The World Almanac and Book of Facts. New York, 1988
__________________
salim2 is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 10:24 AM   #23
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 02:13 PM
salim2: As i said above, religious values are basically the same but what the people make out of it in countries like Iran is a shame to Islam.
It's almost the same like what christianity was perverted to in the dark ages.
It's a fact that - also a Woman is equal before god she's not equally treated in countries like the above.
And there are so called islamic countries where the laws are MUCH more upsetting (for example rape of a sister of a guilty man to punish the man)

I also think that there are no Islamic, Christian or even Atheist contributions to Science (I guess the list of the Christian contributions would be pretty impressive too).

Klaus
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 10:32 AM   #24
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 12:13 AM
If people don't want to discuss Islam in this thread or learn a perspective or topic in general they didn't know much about before, then please feel free to not post.

This thread won't be closed, so lay off the insults guys. We'll pretend it's a bar and rather than close it down, we'll throw out the trouble makers.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 10:38 AM   #25
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:13 PM
Salim, thanks for the scientific history sketch. I still can't find my medieval Islamic science site link.
The names should help.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 10:47 AM   #26
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:13 PM
Salim, I would say that it's not Christianity that pressures people to "dress sexy". It's secular culture. The United States is without a doubt a secular culture. We have our roots in an older European culture where people were persecuted if they didn't practice the religion of the state. For example, my French Protestant ancestors had to get the hell out of France to avoid getting sent to the galleys, just for being Protestant in a Catholic country, France. They came here and continued to practice their religion because they wanted to, not because the state mandated it. This is how we got Christianity and "sexy" stuff in the same culture. I do not profess to be any sort of expert on historical developments in Islamic culture but it's obviously very different in the various struggles for human rights and dignity.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 10:58 AM   #27
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:13 AM
Seculare culture has its influences, but it is the freedom given in Judeo-Christian beliefs that allow choices in style of dress.

As Salim points out, Islam removes many freedoms from lifestyle.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 11:09 AM   #28
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 12:13 AM
How many Judeo-Christians get around in boob-tubes and fish nets?

All religions restrict freedom in some way.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 11:20 AM   #29
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:13 AM
The Reformation broke many of the restrictions historically held by Christianity. If you are allowed to read and interpret the Bible yourself, freedom will follow.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-25-2004, 11:26 AM   #30
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 12:13 AM
So if I walked into your church with too much make-up, a skirt short enough to be a belt, fish nets and a boob tube, none of you would cast an eye at me and wonder?

I do not intend this at you personally nbc, but I find that very hard to believe. It is a nice theory, but it doesn't work in reality.
__________________

__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com