Science and Religion: What do you think of Evolution? - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-08-2002, 04:37 AM   #76
New Yorker
 
Achtung_Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Beneath the noise, below the din
Posts: 2,859
Local Time: 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon

But lets look at the concrete facts that creationists are too blind to look at:
Actually, each of your below points have been taken into account and considered by these blind creationists.

Quote:
-- Pray tell, how do you explain away dinosaur remains? Trilobyte remains? I'm sure you've gone to a museum sometime and have seen these remains. And, if humans were living this entire time, why haven't there ever been human remains beside them?
there exists a number of simultaneous human and dinosaur prints found, mainly in Mexico, New Mexico, Arizona, Missouri, Kentucky, and Illinois. They are widely distributed and usually exposed by flood erosion and bulldozers. Also, there are places in Arizona and Rhodesia where dinosaur pictographs have been found drawn on cave/canyon walls by man (before the possibility of depiction by excavation). Furthermore, you will find in Job 40:15-41:34 a reference which seems to refer to land and marine dinosaurs living in Job's day. Five-toed llamas are also thought to have been extinct about 30 million years ago according to the framework of evolution, but archaeologists have found pottery with etchings of five-toed llamas, and skeletons have been found in association with the Tiahuanacan culture. William Mesiter also has found several trilobites in the fossilized, sandaled footprint of a man, but according to evolution trilobites became extinct 230 million years before the appearance of man, which would make this an impossibility. There has been another discovery such as this by geologist Clifford Burdick who studied the prints of a barefooted child containing a compressed trilobite.

Quote:

that Antarctica has had tropical plant fossils underneath all that ice?
Creationists propose a possible explanation--the collapse of a vast vapor canopy that enveloped the pre-Flood world. Such a canopy would have produced a worldwide greenhouse effect, meaning mild climate throughout with insignificant seasonal change. No rainfall/rainbows would have existed, rather a mist would rise from the earth that would water the face of the ground (Gen. 2:5-6; 8:22; 9:13). This canopy would help to explain why palm leaves, fruit trees, tropical marine crustaceans, coral reefs and vast amounts of subtropical plant life are buried under the polar regions. It's also believed that this vapor canopy may have filtered out harmful radiation from space which is known to have an extreme effect on mutations and the aging process. This canopy may havae been a key factor accounting for longevity before the Flood. After the Flood, the ages of the biblical patriarchs steadily declined:

Noah = 950 years
Salah = 433 years
Peleg = 239 years
Abraham = 175 years
Moses = 120 years
David = 70 years
Present = 70-80 years (Ps. 90:10)

The collapse of this vapor canopy can explain the statement found in Genesis 7:11-12: "the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights." This is not referring to common rainfall here, because if the water vapor and clouds in the given atmosphere where precipitated to the earth, rainfall would amount to only a few inches and end after a few short hours; therefore this could very well refer to the collapse of this gigantic vapor canopy. This would also explain away the frozen mammoths found in Siberia.

Quote:

There are several gigantic meteor craters on Earth that, if they all had occurred during the last 10,000 years, would have made all life as we know it extinct several times over?
I don't know which collisions you refer to, but I do know that the solar system has been intricately created and that the earth's atmosphere protects us from approx. 20 million meteors that enter it each day at speeds of about 30 miles per second. Sounds like something is watching out for us
...

Quote:

-- Or, assuming that Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel were the first humans and all are related to each other, where did all the different races come from? White, Black, Asian, Indian, Arab, Native American...or is this a case of "spontaneous generation"?


yeah from what I've heard there has been many theories developed by evolutionists on this issue--but each theory tends to admit that if races are to arise, a population must be split into small, isolated groups which leads to inbreeding. Creationists look to the Tower of Babel as the likely starting point of the "human races". The human population was divided at the Tower of Babel, each group going their own way, resulting in a concentration of certain genes and therefore certain races or groups of people with characteristic features.

Honestly, all this age of the earth argument seems insignificant... regardless of when we were created, it still appears obvious to me that mind is always over matter... matter never produces a mind when left to itself. If you were to isolate a building or car and leave it untouched, it would eventually decay. This principle can be applied to all matter and this theory of evolution takes this out of consideration. There is a mind over all things and I think we all know who this mind is attributed to.

Oh I also wanted to mention the thing about the Black Sea and there being no proof of a worldwide flood.... I do not feel the need to have this proven by present day men because if you turn to Genesis you will find that God informs Noah that ALL flesh on the earth shall perish... I don't think it would be right to alter God's words based on scientific assumptions. Where does it stop?

I can't respond to all of those points, it's time to turn in!
__________________

__________________
Achtung_Bebe is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 06:06 AM   #77
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 02:39 AM
Re: Re: OOOOOps .....MOOOOOOOOOOO

Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave



I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time making the connection for how this relates to religion vs evolution debate........
Me too. And I grew up on Floyd.

No one is brainwashed here. To suggest other because someone has a different belief, is ridiculous, Pink. By the way... which oneīs Pink?
__________________

__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 06:15 AM   #78
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 02:39 AM
Both is true.

Women and Men and all beings were created by God.

And evolutionists are on the right track.

Actually time doesnīt matter that much when physicians are researching sth. like twentytwo dimensions. Time is just No. 4, k? To God thus doesnīt matter at all. How about that: What if, in the "perception" of God - even though this perception doesnīt exist because everything IS God - one millisecond is the same like a billion of years?

Is there anybody out there?
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 08:59 AM   #79
Offishul Kitteh Doctor
Forum Moderator
 
bonosloveslave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Taking care of kitties
Posts: 9,655
Local Time: 07:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Then I looked at bonosloveslave's picture- and she looks heavenly.

So, I am still confussed->

Awww, shucks........



Achtung - good follow-ups


Pax - good questions, and I think you're right about the things that matter. Ultimately, there are some questions that we will never have the answers to until we meet God face to face; believing or not believing in Creation or evolution is not important in regards to our ultimate eternal fate (which in my opinion is the only thing that really matters).
__________________
bonosloveslave [at] interference.com
bonosloveslave is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 10:40 AM   #80
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung_Bebe
there exists a number of simultaneous human and dinosaur prints found, mainly in Mexico, New Mexico, Arizona, Missouri, Kentucky, and Illinois.
Sorry...I've seen those "prints," which are distinctly ambiguous. I'm looking for bones. If we can get bones from dinosaurs that are a fraction of our size with smaller bone density, then why aren't we there? Is it because we weren't?

Also, there are places in Arizona and Rhodesia where dinosaur pictographs have been found drawn on cave/canyon walls by man (before the possibility of depiction by excavation).

So your "evidence" is ambiguous, prehistoric pictographs? That could be a lizard, for God's sake! You know, we do have small, now living lizards that do stand upright, you know. And, considering their depiction of people were flat, boxy blobs with stick hands and feet, I don't think they were going for masterful detail.

Quote:
Furthermore, you will find in Job 40:15-41:34 a reference which seems to refer to land and marine dinosaurs living in Job's day. Five-toed llamas are also thought to have been extinct about 30 million years ago according to the framework of evolution, but archaeologists have found pottery with etchings of five-toed llamas, and skeletons have been found in association with the Tiahuanacan culture.


That's funny. The Catholic Bible explains what these ambiguous terms stand for:

"Behemoth" = hippopotamous
"Leviathan" = crocodile

You are grasping for straws.

But five-toed llamas could still have existed. I mean, coelocanths were thought to have been extinct since the Cretateous period, but were found still alive in 1930. I have never stated that evolution is perfect, but, at least, it will evolve, according to concrete evidence!

Quote:
William Mesiter also has found several trilobites in the fossilized, sandaled footprint of a man, but according to evolution trilobites became extinct 230 million years before the appearance of man, which would make this an impossibility. There has been another discovery such as this by geologist Clifford Burdick who studied the prints of a barefooted child containing a compressed trilobite.
This is 100% illogical. Trilobites were ocean animals. This would be like saying we can find human footprints next to giant squid. Why their fossils appear, though, is due to the nature of plate tectonics, which has reshaped the surface of the Earth repeatedly in the last billions of years, pushing and subducting parts of the Earth's crust (earthquakes are the result of this constant process).

Quote:
Creationists propose a possible explanation--the collapse of a vast vapor canopy that enveloped the pre-Flood world. Such a canopy would have produced a worldwide greenhouse effect, meaning mild climate throughout with insignificant seasonal change. No rainfall/rainbows would have existed, rather a mist would rise from the earth that would water the face of the ground (Gen. 2:5-6; 8:22; 9:13). This canopy would help to explain why palm leaves, fruit trees, tropical marine crustaceans, coral reefs and vast amounts of subtropical plant life are buried under the polar regions. It's also believed that this vapor canopy may have filtered out harmful radiation from space which is known to have an extreme effect on mutations and the aging process. This canopy may havae been a key factor accounting for longevity before the Flood. After the Flood, the ages of the biblical patriarchs steadily declined:

Noah = 950 years
Salah = 433 years
Peleg = 239 years
Abraham = 175 years
Moses = 120 years
David = 70 years
Present = 70-80 years (Ps. 90:10)
LOL...this is just too much. I see, now, that the patriarchs all abided by the Julian / Gregorian calendar? Their ages lowered, because their calendars changed!

Most human mutations are irrelevant of light and radiation, and that's because the human process of meiosis, which creates sperm and eggs, is deliberately mutagenic. Otherwise, without this process, all children of a certain set of parents would be identical. In fact, the average human has, at least, eight mutations, with most being in "junk" DNA. This argument of yours is illogical as well.

It is just as ridiculous as the notion of "666," which are really three Hebrew characters that look like Arabic numeral sixes. Considering Europe didn't even adopt Arabic numerals until c. A.D. 1000, I doubt an ancient text would even have it.

And, as for the "vapor canopy," how do you explain the Ice Age, then? Glaciers don't and can't form in such a short time frame. Tropical fossils were found in Michigan as well, but was also buried under huge ice sheets. 10,000 years ago, we were in an Ice Age!

Quote:
I don't know which collisions you refer to, but I do know that the solar system has been intricately created and that the earth's atmosphere protects us from approx. 20 million meteors that enter it each day at speeds of about 30 miles per second. Sounds like something is watching out for us
You mean, stuff like this?



This is in Arizona, and there are over 100 terrestrial impact craters on Earth. Of course, this one is dated 49,000 years ago, so I'm guessing those damn evolutionists invented it! And let's not forget the several mile crater off of the Yucatan peninsula...

Quote:
Oh I also wanted to mention the thing about the Black Sea and there being no proof of a worldwide flood.... I do not feel the need to have this proven by present day men because if you turn to Genesis you will find that God informs Noah that ALL flesh on the earth shall perish... I don't think it would be right to alter God's words based on scientific assumptions. Where does it stop?
See? This is the problem with creationism, completely devoid of critical analysis, and, when backed into a corner, will invent anything to try and convince that it is true. No one still answered my question about Cain marrying someone who shouldn't exist...

Truthfully? It is my belief that the story of Adam and Eve is a modern mess. First off, it is the story of the creation of man (Hebrew="adam") and woman (Hebrew="yitzah"). I still haven't a clue where "Eve" came from. Genesis, being in a rare place of being likely pre-exilic in origin, exposes a likely cultural truth of Judaism: it was monotheistic in worship, but polytheistic in belief. In other words, they worshipped only the Jewish concept of God, but still believed that other gods existed. Baal, for instance, was the god of the Philistines. Yahweh, in contrast, was the god of the Jews. It is my hypothesis that this is where the idea of the "chosen people" arose from. Adam and Eve, being the first "chosen people"--in other words, being the first Jews, disobey God, and are cast out the garden, which could perhaps be the modern concept of "heaven." So, as a punishment for disobedience, they are cast into the already existant Earth, which is already populated full of non-"chosen people." This is why Cain can suddenly settle in Nod and marry, because it is a given that other people exist prior to them! The people of Nod are not "chosen." Later exilic influence from Persian Zoroastrianism, which gave Judeo-Christianity the concept of Satan and angels, amongst other things, eliminates this polytheistic notion, and we see little other evidence, considering the rest of the Old Testament was all written after the exile.

But these are all stories--myths that all ancient cultures have--and we are foolish to take them for anything else.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 10:50 AM   #81
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 02:39 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


But these are all stories--myths that all ancient cultures have--and we are foolish to take them for anything else.

Melon
Donīt take myths or ancient cultures so easy, they can be very true - generally, not only the bible.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 10:53 AM   #82
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Donīt take myths or ancient cultures so easy, they can be very true - generally, not only the bible.
Sorry...what I mean to say is you can't take them literally. They do hold a lot of cultural truths, though.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 11:21 AM   #83
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 02:39 AM
Hmmm... I wouldnīt take some parts of the bible literally, but others for sure, yes. You donīt need to say sorry, you havenīt offended me or hurt me or sth.

I try to take the Sermon on the Mount literally, f.e., like imho every Christ should.

There is a lot of ancient knowledge w some African tribes, priests, or witch-doctors. The tragedy is that all this is going to be lost soon.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 01:29 PM   #84
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave
Ultimately, there are some questions that we will never have the answers to until we meet God face to face; believing or not believing in Creation or evolution is not important in regards to our ultimate eternal fate (which in my opinion is the only thing that really matters).
We could argue which part of the bible are true, which are false, how my church defines terms, how yours defines terms, etc., until we are all blue in the face.

God did not give us a complete record of all history in the bible or feel the need to explain every detail or answer every question (like the origin of Cain's wife). God is not sitting in heaven thinking "Damn, they got me on the carbon dating evidence".

We will stand before a Holy God and give account for how we handled His Word. As BLS points our correctly (again) we will receive all our answers when we see our Lord face to face.

Shalome
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 01:38 PM   #85
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
We will stand before a Holy God and give account for how we handled His Word. As BLS points our correctly (again) we will receive all our answers when we see our Lord face to face.
Ultimately, I find that the origin of the world is flat out irrelevant to moral issues. I guess I'm attempting to say that those who believe in evolution aren't automatically God hating sinners, bent on sending the world into socialistic atheism, as so many creationists wish to imply.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 02:10 PM   #86
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Ultimately, I find that the origin of the world is flat out irrelevant to moral issues. I guess I'm attempting to say that those who believe in evolution aren't automatically God hating sinners, bent on sending the world into socialistic atheism, as so many creationists wish to imply.

Melon
1. We are all sinners. No use in pointing the finger on that issue by anyone.

2. I think the underlying issue is the inherency of Scripture. God's Word is not limited to addressing moral issues.

Thank you for all the effort you put in your posts, Melon. They do make this forum a great thinking place.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 04:58 PM   #87
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Why do the two have to be in conflict?

Maybe I am being dumb......

But, isn't God capable at creating whatever he wants at whatever speed he wants?

Why do we have to limit God's power?



Peace (To ALL)
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 05:10 PM   #88
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Why do the two have to be in conflict?

Maybe I am being dumb......

But, isn't God capable at creating whatever he wants at whatever speed he wants?

Why do we have to limit God's power?
The idea of a God-created evolution has never bothered me in the slightest, and I find it far more fascinating to watch the world unfold in this manner.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 11-08-2002, 10:29 PM   #89
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
U2Bama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine
Posts: 3,405
Local Time: 06:39 PM

There is just no need for either side to beat the other down and attack their intellect over differences of opinion and theory on the matter.

~U2Alabama
__________________
U2Bama is offline  
Old 11-12-2002, 12:35 PM   #90
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 01:39 AM
To proof the existance of a good i would need at least 50 gods in my lab ,-)
So science who needs to verify or falsify its theories can't work if you look for "the one who is out there".

For me it's also not verry scientific to speculate abouth the begining of the universe if you just have a few hundred years of data about our galaxy.
It's like watching a movie the verry first time (just 2 seconds in the middle of the movie) and speculate about the beginning and the end.

The only therory i know at the moment which tries to explain all in a scientific way is the string-theory . The good side: it dosn't falsify itself. The bad side: if you try to proof it (the existance of strings) You need a particle accelerator which is bigger than our galaxy.

So it seems to me like it's useless at the moment to discuss this in a scientific way.
The ones who wants to believe in God should feel free to do so, the ones who prefer to believe in science should do so either. But please don't call others foolish just because they don't share your belief.

Klaus

p.s. Yes i believe in God
__________________

__________________
Klaus is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright ÂĐ Interference.com