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Old 11-05-2002, 03:25 AM   #46
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Evolution is something that I feel passionately about, even more so lately. I'm currently studying it in Biology class, and as a christian it left me asking a few questions. I have personally concluded that you can either accept evolution or creationism as an origin, but not both... one contradicts the other. I believe that variation has occured among species, but not to the extent that one species evolved from another species and so on. Obviously organic matter arising from inorganic matter seems laughable to me. I like what George Wald (1967 Nobel peace Prize winner) had to say about this :
"When it comes to the origin of life on this earth, there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation (evolution). There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved years ago, but that leads us only to one other conclusion: that of supernatural creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds (personal reasons); therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance."

I think too much compromise has been made regarding our origin, even among the Church. Rather than regarding Genesis as a literal account of creation people have resorted to a symbolic interpretation in order to leave room for scientific theory. If the Bible, which was written by God through man, proclaims that life was created in its complete form each for its own purpose, then I believe it!! Notice how contradictory these two really are: biological evolution states that all bacteria, plants, animals, and even humans have arisen by chance from a single ancestor that somehow came to be. This suggests an "accidental" origination rather than the planning of a supreme being... a planning through which all laws, processes and identities were brought into existence just as Genesis describes.

There are simply too many symbiotic relationships and phenomenons that occur in nature for me to believe that all of this just sort of "happened"... I would urge an evolutionist to explain to me how something as intricate as the human eye evolved in a step-by-step process.

Feel free to argue my points but I am pretty set on my belief. I think the theory of evolution ignores the obvious problems attached to this process and instead serves as an alternative to biblical truth.
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:34 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung_Bebe
Evolution is something that I feel passionately about, even more so lately. I'm currently studying it in Biology class, and as a christian it left me asking a few questions. I have personally concluded that you can either accept evolution or creationism as an origin, but not both... one contradicts the other. I believe that variation has occured among species, but not to the extent that one species evolved from another species and so on. Obviously organic matter arising from inorganic matter seems laughable to me. I like what George Wald (1967 Nobel peace Prize winner) had to say about this :
"When it comes to the origin of life on this earth, there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation (evolution). There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved years ago, but that leads us only to one other conclusion: that of supernatural creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds (personal reasons); therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance."

I think too much compromise has been made regarding our origin, even among the Church. Rather than regarding Genesis as a literal account of creation people have resorted to a symbolic interpretation in order to leave room for scientific theory. If the Bible, which was written by God through man, proclaims that life was created in its complete form each for its own purpose, then I believe it!! Notice how contradictory these two really are: biological evolution states that all bacteria, plants, animals, and even humans have arisen by chance from a single ancestor that somehow came to be. This suggests an "accidental" origination rather than the planning of a supreme being... a planning through which all laws, processes and identities were brought into existence just as Genesis describes.

There are simply too many symbiotic relationships and phenomenons that occur in nature for me to believe that all of this just sort of "happened"... I would urge an evolutionist to explain to me how something as intricate as the human eye evolved in a step-by-step process.

Feel free to argue my points but I am pretty set on my belief. I think the theory of evolution ignores the obvious problems attached to this process and instead serves as an alternative to biblical truth.
*Bravo!* Very well said - my feelings exactly
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:53 AM   #48
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I lok at it this way. Who says there had to BE a creation of any sort?
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Old 11-05-2002, 10:13 AM   #49
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Quote:
. I believe that variation has occured among species, but not to the extent that one species evolved from another species and so on
Yes! Very good point.

There are way to many holes in the whole "mutations make variations and then are naturally selected" theory. Scientists admit this.

There should be soooo much more evidence if this was the case. But there isn't.

What I find funny is that we, as the human race, think we have this thing nailed down... and if we look at history, every 100 years or so, we are soooo sure we have the answer, only to have it blown away in a couple of hundred years.

It may take sometime, but evolution will also fall. It's so much more complex than this.

Mark
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Old 11-05-2002, 10:26 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung_Bebe
Feel free to argue my points but I am pretty set on my belief. I think the theory of evolution ignores the obvious problems attached to this process and instead serves as an alternative to biblical truth.
I think what really has holes blown through it is literal creationism--either in some "seven days" mode (which is amusing that we would even consider it to be the literal concept of "seven days," considering that Genesis has people living to be 900 years old...) or in a revised 10,000 years idea. Again, literal history and simple science blew holes into this even a century ago.

In a way, for me, the more we learn about science, the more I think we reveal God's magnificence. Spontaneous generation, as I agree, doesn't happen; so it is my view that, billions of years ago, God started the process of evolution. There is a third option, indeed.

Melon
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Old 11-05-2002, 10:27 AM   #51
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I've never heard a serious scientist say 'We have this thing nailed down'. And that's more than I can say about the church.
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Old 11-05-2002, 10:47 AM   #52
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Re: MadelynIris

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Originally posted by MadelynIris
There are way to many holes in the whole "mutations make variations and then are naturally selected" theory. Scientists admit this.
Has one ever thought about something incredibly obvious: domesticated dogs and cats? I mean, we have dogs and cats of every sort of variety we can imagine--and all of them are man-made. No, hundreds of thousands of years ago, we didn't have wild cocker spaniels roaming the prairie; they're all the result of very selective (in)breeding. I would not underestimate the power of mutation--look at the relative ease it takes bacteria and viruses to become drug-resistant--and, as well, we have the paradox of evolution. People wish to deny it, because it is generally inobservable; but, by nature, it is a macro process, meaning that it will extend over millennia.

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Old 11-05-2002, 01:29 PM   #53
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I think the key premise for evolution to even be a possibilty is that you need LOTS and LOTS of time. This article is a bit lengthy to post here, but there are some good explanations for how some scientists estimate the earth at millions and billions of years old.
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Old 11-05-2002, 04:15 PM   #54
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I'm not going to pretend to understand every step in the generation of the human eye. I'm just going to say that there is a definite evolutionary advantage to organisms that are able to evolve cells that can sense light. On this basis, I can see how a larger structure based on this principle might form.
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Old 11-05-2002, 04:49 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave
I think the key premise for evolution to even be a possibilty is that you need LOTS and LOTS of time. This article is a bit lengthy to post here, but there are some good explanations for how some scientists estimate the earth at millions and billions of years old.
BLS - thank you for the link - I had not seen that site before.

Another helpful site is Reasons To Believe
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Old 11-05-2002, 05:05 PM   #56
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Forget evolution for a moment.

The idea that the Earth and the universe is only 6,000-10,000 years old is flat out unsupportable. I really don't know how much more physical evidence one needs. Considering, indeed, that if the Earth were only 6,000-10,000 years old that humans would have populated it the entire time, then why the hell didn't ancient peoples document living with dinosaurs? Or giant insects? BOTH of which we have fossil evidence. Why do we have distinct geological records that separate us *clearly* from long extinct animals? Let us not forget stuff like "coal" that came from completely organic material (relics from the tropical and plant-heavy Carboniferous period)! 6,000-10,000 years isn't enough time to create coal! Let's not forget meteor impacts, which, again, we have evidence of--which would have made mankind extinct several times over if they all happened in 6,000-10,000 years.

I did read that article. Complete pseudoscientific psychobabble. Just as ridiculous as numerology that *always* points to the end of the world being a few years ahead from the present....which has been going on since the Crusades.

"How does an evolutionist defend his position? They defend their position by faith, and faith alone!"

Riiiight. How does a creationist defend his opinion? A few paragraphs in Genesis, adjacent to stories of Cain marrying and procreating with someone who shouldn't exist and 900 year old people. How does an evolutionist defend his opinion? Fossils, plate tectonics, carbon-dating, archeaological finds, etc. There are Native American artifacts that are older than creationism. Heck, there are Neandertal artifacts that are older than humanity. There is *distinct* evidence of prehistory before mankind.

Turn on your brain, for God's sake!

Melon
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Old 11-05-2002, 05:18 PM   #57
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http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...rrier/ten.html

And read that while you're at it. A great example of creationist pseudoscience being analyzed.

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Old 11-05-2002, 06:38 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...rrier/ten.html

And read that while you're at it. A great example of creationist pseudoscience being analyzed.

Melon
Interesting. Not really an analysis of creationism as much as a critique of the style of arguement that Richard Carrier believes creationists use.

Also, those who view God's Word as inherent don't necessarily agree on a 6000 year old earth. The geneologies of Genesis are not necessarily immediate decendents.

After reading a number of posts on this thread, I think those who follow a creationist model do use their brains.

Bottom line question - is God all powerful or has the universe gotten out of hand for Him?
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:07 PM   #59
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finally, a subject I know something about

as an anthro major I feel obliged to actually reply to this... basically I've spent the last year learning about human evolution I'd like to get on to living people now, thanks
Anyway. I don't feel like writing a book here, so I'll provide examples/explanations on request...
I believe in both creationism and evolution, and they are not contradictory to each other. I believe God is all-powerful and is control of the universe (and in control of evolution), but that's not the point of my post.
Basically, evolution is natural selection as a result of environmental pressure over a really, really long time period. That natural selection happens is undeniable. Scientists do not say "evolution happened THIS way, that's how it is, the end." They also don't say "evolution is right and creationism is wrong." Those that do need a good whack on the head. It's the theory of evolution, and like all theories is flexible, depending on current studies. Also like all theories, it has its holes, which is why people are still doing research on it.
I would very, very strongly recommend all of you planning on disproving evolution take a class on it first if you haven't already. In my opinion it's best to know both sides from the people who study it before making a decision. My dad, stepmom, and her entire family constantly drill me about this, and all of their (extremely biased) knowledge comes from books written by creationists who don't know the facts trying to point out how evolution is just not true... You have no idea how many times I've answered the question "If people evolved from chimps, why are there still chimps?"
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Old 11-07-2002, 08:37 AM   #60
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I really want to respond to all this but I am late for class
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