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Old 10-08-2006, 12:42 PM   #106
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Originally posted by TheQuiet1


I remember the GCSE biology lesson we had about how the world was created well. It went like this:

TEACHER: Here on the whiteboard is a list of the names of various theories about how the world was created. Please copy them down into your exercise books. Now you won't be expected in the exam to know in detail all of these theories but you will be expected to be aware of them. The one that you will be expected to know in great detail however is this one, Darwin's theory of Evolution. This is what we're going to spend the next few lessons focusing on. For the others you just need a sentence or so explaining what they are.

*We have brief discussion explaining what each of the theories are about, making notes as he talks. We get to the Creation theory*

CLASS DICKHEAD WHO DISRUPTED EVERY LESSON HE WAS IN:
You'd have to be pretty stupid to believe that though, wouldn't you sir?

TEACHER: WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO MOCK OTHER PEOPLE'S BELIEFS?! WHAT RIGHT? NONE! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT! NO RIGHT AT ALL! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?!!

CLASS DICKHEAD: Yeah, but...

TEACHER: JUST SHUT UP! JUST SHUT UP AND GET ON YOUR WORK OR GET OUT OF THIS CLASSROOM!! I'M FED UP OF THIS! EVERY LESSON YOU DO THIS! YOU INTERRUPT, YOU DISRUPT AND PREVENT EVERYONE ELSE FROM LEARNING! YOU HAVE YOUR EXAMS COMING UP SOON AND WE STILL HAVE HALF OF THE SYLLABUS TO GO THROUGH!! EVERY SINGLE LESSON YOU DELAY MY TEACHING!

CLASS DICKHEAD: ...I'm

TEACHER: JUST GET OUT. GET OUT!!!

OK, so I can't remember the exact rant but it was something very similar. I'd never seen him lose his temper like that before (or since) and it ranks as probably my favourite biology lesson ever. Ahhh those were the days.

But my point is, at my school we were made aware of the alternatives, taught to respect other people's beliefs however much we disagreed with them and learnt the theory of evolution (including its flaws). It seems to me to be the perfect compromise. Maybe in the USA you do the exact same thing...though perhaps respect for one another's views needs a little more emphasis in your education system........
Leave the religious stuff to RE or social ed, that was a science lesson.
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Old 10-08-2006, 12:58 PM   #107
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Originally posted by vaz02


Leave the religious stuff to RE or social ed, that was a science lesson.
I think the point was to emphasise that no-one knows for sure how the world was created. To make people aware of other ideas instead of teaching that Evolution is a complete answer to how the world was created or the only answer. It was literally 5 minutes at the start of the lesson (at least it meant to be till Bigmouth opened his gob and received a 15 minute tirade from the teacher).

To me, that's a good compromise . Makes people aware of other theories such as Intelligent Design (as some people wish to be taught in schools) while still giving in-depth knowledge of Evolution (which other people want taught exclusively).
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Old 10-08-2006, 01:40 PM   #108
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Originally posted by TheQuiet1
To me, that's a good compromise . Makes people aware of other theories such as Intelligent Design (as some people wish to be taught in schools) while still giving in-depth knowledge of Evolution (which other people want taught exclusively).
If it's in a science class, shouldn't the "science" behind those other theories be examined as well?
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Old 10-08-2006, 03:16 PM   #109
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If it's in a science class, shouldn't the "science" behind those other theories be examined as well?
That would be why we didn't focus in any detail on the other theories and went in depth on the theory of evolution, natural selection etc.

It was literally a bullet pointed list at the start of the class. I don't understand your problem with that. Its natural and common that there's going to be crossovers between subjects. By your logic we shouldn't talk about the Russian Revolution when doing about 'Animal Farm' in English Literature because that's History. By your logic we shouldn't discuss enzymes in Food Tech because that's Chemistry. If you're doing about the creation of the world in Biology then its natural that aspects of R.E are going to come into it because its linked to what we're doing about! But then you go on to the more scientific theories because it's a science exam that you're studying for. Just like in the English Literature lesson you're expected to know the historical elements of Animal Farm but ultimately it's the writing aspect that's more important; in the biology lesson you're expected to know of other theories but it's the scientific aspects that are more important.

I honestly do see where both you and Vaz are coming from, but I just respectfully disagree. I don't think there's any need to separate subjects out so strictly and think that crossover topics between subjects are actually good for students.
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Old 10-08-2006, 03:39 PM   #110
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Originally posted by TheQuiet1


That would be why we didn't focus in any detail on the other theories and went in depth on the theory of evolution, natural selection etc.

It was literally a bullet pointed list at the start of the class. I don't understand your problem with that. Its natural and common that there's going to be crossovers between subjects. By your logic we shouldn't talk about the Russian Revolution when doing about 'Animal Farm' in English Literature because that's History. By your logic we shouldn't discuss enzymes in Food Tech because that's Chemistry. If you're doing about the creation of the world in Biology then its natural that aspects of R.E are going to come into it because its linked to what we're doing about! But then you go on to the more scientific theories because it's a science exam that you're studying for. Just like in the English Literature lesson you're expected to know the historical elements of Animal Farm but ultimately it's the writing aspect that's more important; in the biology lesson you're expected to know of other theories but it's the scientific aspects that are more important.

I honestly do see where both you and Vaz are coming from, but I just respectfully disagree. I don't think there's any need to separate subjects out so strictly and think that crossover topics between subjects are actually good for students.
I think you may have completely misunderstood my post.

Some people want these "alternatives" taught in a science class. What I'm saying is: If people think these should be taught in a science class, then discuss the "science" involved in ID. In other words, the "science" of ID can't be discussed, because there isn't any science involved.
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Old 10-08-2006, 03:52 PM   #111
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Originally posted by martha


I think you may have completely misunderstood my post.

Some people want these "alternatives" taught in a science class. What I'm saying is: If people think these should be taught in a science class, then discuss the "science" involved in ID. In other words, the "science" of ID can't be discussed, because there isn't any science involved.
Ah. Sorry. So what you're saying is, you don't have any problem with what we did in my lesson by meaning it in passing, but you would have issues with it being any more in depth than that in a science lesson?
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Old 10-08-2006, 04:33 PM   #112
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Originally posted by TheQuiet1
Ah. Sorry. So what you're saying is, you don't have any problem with what we did in my lesson by meaning it in passing, but you would have issues with it being any more in depth than that in a science lesson?
Yeah. Exactly.

Unless it was to show the lack of science in the theories, which would really get you in hot water.
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:16 AM   #113
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Access to guns results in so many senseless American deaths, every year. It's disgusting to me.
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Old 10-09-2006, 02:02 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheQuiet1


I think the point was to emphasise that no-one knows for sure how the world was created. To make people aware of other ideas instead of teaching that Evolution is a complete answer to how the world was created or the only answer. It was literally 5 minutes at the start of the lesson (at least it meant to be till Bigmouth opened his gob and received a 15 minute tirade from the teacher).

To me, that's a good compromise . Makes people aware of other theories such as Intelligent Design (as some people wish to be taught in schools) while still giving in-depth knowledge of Evolution (which other people want taught exclusively).
I can say with a very high confidence level that the Earth formed from the accretion of chondritic material surrounding the proto-Sun around 4.54 billion years ago; that is supported by the evidence (geochronology of both terrestrial minerals and geochemistry of meteorites). It is absurd to respect creation as an alternative, we don't teach the stork theory of baby origins or the flying spaghetti monster to be fair and balanced.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:04 AM   #115
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It is absurd to respect creation as an alternative, we don't teach the flying spaghetti monster to be fair and balanced.




Looks like a good theory to me.
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The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, while having existed in secrecy for hundreds of years, only recently came into the mainstream when this letter was published in May 2005.

With millions, if not thousands, of devout worshippers, the Church of the FSM is widely considered a legitimate religion, even by it’s opponents - mostly fundamentalist Christians, who have accepted that our God has larger balls than theirs.

Some claim that the church is purely a thought experiment, satire, illustrating that Intelligent Design is not science, but rather a pseudoscience manufactured by Christians to push Creationism into public schools. These people are mistaken. The Church of FSM is real, totally legit, and backed by hard science. Anything that comes across as humor or satire is purely coincidental.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:05 AM   #116
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Reductio ad Absurdum
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:34 AM   #117
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Fascinating how this this thread has landed at ID and evolution.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:54 AM   #118
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Sorry, one track mind; we all need obsessions in our lives and mine just happens to be life on Earth - anything remotely political is distraction.

That doesn't detract from the sympathies to the victims of the basic thing that messed up people will do very bad things and we can't always stop it no matter how bad it is.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:27 AM   #119
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I very often appreciate your viewpoint and continue to enjoy the evolution discussion. I'm just startled at this seque. Not that I should be.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:27 AM   #120
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I very often appreciate your viewpoint and continue to enjoy the evolution discussion. I'm just startled at this seque. Not that I should be.
Well, this quote is what caused the segue:

Quote:
For over two generations, the public school system has taught in a moral vacuum, expelling God from the school and from the government, replacing him with evolution, where the strong kill the weak, without moral consequences and life has no inherent value.
I'd still like someone to explain how not teaching ID can be linked to school shootings.
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