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Old 10-05-2006, 10:44 AM   #46
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http://www.htrnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...N0101/61004054

MADISON — Following three violent school shootings that struck the nation in the past two weeks, including one in a small rural town in Wisconsin, State Rep. Frank Lasee, R-Bellevue, today announced his plans to introduce legislation that will allow teachers, principals, administrators, and other school personnel to carry concealed weapons.

The lawmaker said that while his idea may not be politically correct, it has worked effectively in other countries.

“To make our schools safe for our students to learn, all options should be on the table,” said Lasee. “Israel and Thailand have well-trained teachers carrying weapons and keeping their children safe from harm. It can work in Wisconsin.”

Israeli teachers and parent volunteers have been carrying concealed weapons in their classrooms for 25 years. Before teachers armed themselves, schools in the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Hundreds of children were killed. Not one child has been harmed by gunfire in an Israeli school since. ...

...Lasee said he wants to bring this proven program to Wisconsin. Lasee’s bill will not require all teachers and school personnel to carry weapons. It will simply give them the option. The proposal will require stringent training both on the range and in the classroom for any school employee who wants to carry concealed.

“We have a duty to protect our children,” said Lasee. “If we truly want to make our schools safe havens for learning, we should give our teachers and school employees access to the tools and training they need to protect our kids from harm.”

The lawmaker said he will offer the bill for co-sponsorship when the state legislature reconvenes early next year.
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:14 AM   #47
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Yeah, let's be more like Israel and Thailand.
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:16 AM   #48
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Great idea. Then when some teacher/administrator loses it and opens fire on some kid who was being a wiseass, then what?

Oh and I love the whole "it's because we have evolution in school & not God" argument. These people sicken me. People have been shot & killed, and the Right sees it as just another opportunity to advance their propaganda.
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:43 AM   #49
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I would sure like to see some sources for Lasee's claims on the West Bank settlements policy (I checked his website, and no sources are provided there either). I don't doubt that teachers there carry guns--many, if not most, settlers do--but to the extent that this in itself is a proven deterrent to terrorist attacks, I'd imagine it involves security procedures that kick in long before the point at which the assassin strolls into the classroom. These are small schools in small communities and an approaching stranger would be easy to spot.

On the face of it, it seems very unlikely that an armed teacher would likely have been able to prevent the Colorado or Pennsylvania killings (and an Amish teacher wouldn't carry a gun anyway, but setting that aside for a moment). If I were going into a school armed and with the intent to harm or kill, God forbid, and assuming I was able to evade whatever perimeter security existed, I wouldn't even give the teacher a chance to draw their gun; I'd kill them immediately, then take at least one student hostage to give me leverage with anyone else who tried to challenge me. Which was exactly the dilemma the police faced in the Colorado and Pennsylvania shootings: it takes only an instant to take a hostage, and once you've done that, anyone else who tries to take you down risks indirectly bringing about the hostage's death. And what about the case of a student who brings a weapon to school, assuming no one catches them with the weapon before they have a chance to draw it? They would likely do the same.

However if any teachers in here want to make a case for why Lasee's idea might work, I'd be interested to hear it. I can't imagine most teachers wanting more guns in schools than there already are, though.
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Old 10-05-2006, 02:25 PM   #50
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It seems rather ironic to me that people suggest more guns as a way to combat more guns. More summits damnit, that's what we need! I wonder if the NRA will attend..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-s...t_b_30965.html

Schoolgirls Executed in Their Classroom: America Shrugs
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:21 PM   #51
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Have any of you heard about the Baptist group that wants to protest at the funeral for these poor girls? Apparently they would be protesting so that everyone would realize the reason for their deaths is because of homosexuality. Luckily some conservative radio host has offered them an hour of on-air time to spout their bullshit in exchange for not protesting. I mean we can't believe someone would do what this guy did, but look at how crazy this group is, and insensitive, and obnoxious. Sure they're not killing anyone, but they are considered sane by some.
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:22 PM   #52
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it is shocking this hasn't gotten more coverage.

and i am fascinated at the Amish response, and of the Amish themselves:

[q]As the community struggled to comprehend the killer’s actions, families prepared for funerals. Horse-drawn buggies used by the Amish filled the field next to the home where a wake was being held for Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7. Children in bonnets clustered quietly in the yard, and women in long aprons carried casseroles to the door.

Mr. Zook said he and Emma Mae — his daughter — had gone to visit one of the wounded girls in the hospital that day. “That perked her right up,” he said. But at the sight of her in the hospital bed, with tubes attached to her body, Emma Mae fainted, he said. “She’s weak. She just went and sat down in a chair.”

Behind him, Emma Mae’s twin brother and a sister listened shyly to their father’s conversation. Mr. Zook’s wife, dressed in rubber boots, tended to chores.

Throughout this ordeal, the Amish, whose avoidance of vanity extends even to buttons and zippers, have been the object of fascination not just because of their old-fashioned dress and rejection of modern conveniences like cars and electricity, but because of their stoicism, faith and capacity for forgiveness.

Rita Rhoads, a midwife who helped in the births of two of the murdered girls, said the father of one told her that God had helped his daughter. “He said there was a battle between good and evil Monday, and good won,” Ms. Rhoads said. “He felt that way because the shooter was killed before he was able to carry out all of his plans.”

Investigators said they believed Mr. Roberts intended to sexually molest the girls but was interrupted by the arrival of the police.

Lil Nissley, whose daughters had been playmates with one of the victims, said she was at the farm where those fleeing the schoolhouse — the male students and the adult women — had taken refuge. “Any outsider would have said, what’s wrong with these calm people?” she said. “I mean, we were crying, we were praying, but we weren’t hysterical.”

But Ms. Nissley and her husband, David, who are not Amish, said the composure was a matter of culture and training, not suppression. “Their blood runs red,” Mr. Nissley said.

Still, it is not unusual for the Amish to reach out to those who hurt them. When an Amish dies in a car accident, for example, the motorist is often invited to the funeral. Mr. Zook said he had shaken hands with Mr. Roberts’s father-in-law, whom he encountered at the home of the Fisher family, who had three daughters in the school. One escaped, another was wounded and the third was killed. Mr. Zook said such encounters helped the survivors victims heal.

“I think it’s helping him to meet people too, and see that there’s no grudge,” he said of the father-in-law. “How could you hold a grudge against the wife, the family?”

As satellite trucks and reporters descended on the area, many residents said they felt protective of the Amish, who shun publicity. And many Amish said they did not blame the English, as they call their non-Amish neighbors, for what happened.

But the shootings still meant a loss of trust between the Amish and the modern world, especially for the young. One 34-year-old Amish man, who said he would not give his name because he did not want to attract attention, said that the day after the shooting he had to ask a reporter parked near an Amish schoolhouse to move along because her presence was scaring the children.

“She was just sitting there doing bookwork, but the kids were all hiding behind the school peeping around the side,” he said.

After all, they had just learned that the recent carnage occurred after an “Englishman” had parked his pickup truck in front of a school.

“It’s going to be a scar on them for some time,” the man said.[/q]
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Old 10-05-2006, 06:03 PM   #53
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Originally posted by Irvine511


and i am fascinated at the Amish response, and of the Amish themselves[/q]
Total forgiveness and reaching out to help those who hurt you: those are very radical and odd characteristics these days, but in this way in particular, the Amish are behaving exactly how Christ tells his followers to behave. It is a tall order, and I have great respect for them for doing so.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:16 PM   #54
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Originally posted by martha


Then do some kind of formal study and find out how many of these nutjobs were Christian and how many weren't before you decide that "something's going on" based on one guy with one shirt.

I don't base my sociological theories on one guy's t-shirt.
I take it you're a teacher from your earlier post? Good for you. But I need to clarify something, neither the man who spoke on CBS, nor I said anything about Christianity or even religion. It's believe--believe in something bigger than you and a believe that no one other individual is any less important than you. Nor did I say "banning God from school" was the sole or even primary reason for increased violence. And my "something's going on" isn't because of one t-shirt and you know it. It's observation of the world since I left school.

Ask anyone over the age of 40 if they can relate to guns, metal detectors, armed guards, student suicides, Ritalin bottles or lockdowns in school. Ask your school's more experienced teachers if they feel more, or less safe, than 20 years ago.

Then you tell me if anything's changed.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:19 PM   #55
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And my "something's going on" isn't because of one t-shirt and you know it.
No, I didn't "know it." You made that statement right after you quoted the T-shirt.

And honestly, you tend to backtrack frequently when called on to make sense of many of your statements.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:22 PM   #56
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Originally posted by INDY500
Ask anyone over the age of 40 if they can relate to guns, metal detectors, armed guards, student suicides, Ritalin bottles or lockdowns in school. Ask your school's more experienced teachers if they feel more, or less safe, than 20 years ago.
I'll ask them about parents taking less and less responsibility for their kids, I'll ask them about teenagers having guns while the gun lobby ensures their access to them, I'll ask them about media overload on violence, I'll ask them about kids sitting unsupervised in front of their televisions for hours a day.



And thanks for assuming that I'm under 40.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:31 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Ask anyone over the age of 40 if they can relate to guns, metal detectors, armed guards, student suicides, Ritalin bottles or lockdowns in school. Ask your school's more experienced teachers if they feel more, or less safe, than 20 years ago.
I'm 39 and I can tell you that I can't relate to guns, metal detectors, armed guards, Ritalin bottles or lockdowns in school.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:44 PM   #58
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I'm 39 and I can tell you that I can't relate to guns, metal detectors, armed guards, Ritalin bottles or lockdowns in school.


i'm 29 and i can't relate.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:52 PM   #59
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Originally posted by martha


I'll ask them about parents taking less and less responsibility for their kids, I'll ask them about teenagers having guns while the gun lobby ensures their access to them, I'll ask them about media overload on violence, I'll ask them about kids sitting unsupervised in front of their televisions for hours a day.



And thanks for assuming that I'm under 40.


martha, you don't look a day older than 29

i'd also ask about the dramatically increased social inequality and disappearing middle class.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:55 PM   #60
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martha, you don't look a day older than 29
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