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Old 03-22-2005, 09:08 PM   #61
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Originally posted by all_i_want
ok, we get it, there are MANY ways to kill people. you can stab them to death, but that would be kinda messy. a gun is so much easier!

right, we can not ban all lethal objects. but the ones we can, we must. guns are not like knives or baseball bats, they serve only one purpose, to kill!
I fully understand that. All we're saying is that while knives and baseball bats and that have purposes other than killing, they can still pose just as much danger if they fall into the wrong hands as a gun can. And accidents can just as easily happen with them, too.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
also, i do see your point that if a high school student who has undergone commando training wanted to kill a bunch of his classmates, he could very well do so with a swiss army knife. but then, it just isnt as easy as killing them with a gun - not that spectacular either. and the worst part, you cant cause the same kind of damage, you'll have all these potential victims that might be able to run away, and you sure as hell are not gonna stand that!
True. Very true. But some people will still try and kill people with knives anyway. Gangs carry knives around as a means of protecting themselves. Some people will use guns to get the job done, but others aren't into the whole spectacle thing and don't intend to kill just anyone they see, they have their specific targets, so they'll use something smaller, like a knife. Again, I know knives have non-violent purposes, too, but they've still fallen into the wrong hands before, so what do we do to stop those who use knives to kill people instead of guns?

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Originally posted by all_i_want
lets talk about this the other way around. why do people need guns? constitutionally, against the king of england. but really, is it because the like shooting? is it for self protection? or is it because it is a device that gives them the ultimate decision making power - a decision between life and death. now, i dont see WHY people would need magnums or shotguns. could someone please tell this to me? is there any way to justify this?

gun control will not stop murders. it will only REDUCE them. the way i see it, less dead people is BETTER than more dead people! what is so hard to grasp about here?
Oh, I'm all for gun control, definitely. And I've stated numerous times in this thread that I think having assault rifles and that is rather extreme, and I've also said that I'm personally terrified of guns, too-I think it's a shame they have to exist in this world, so you won't get any argument from me on that aspect of it all. It's just that some people do think banning guns solves the problems, and that's not true. Like VertigoGal said, that's a nice idea, sure, but looking at this realistically, a gun ban just wouldn't work. The best thing we can do now is have good gun control laws and do everything in our power to make sure that people who have criminal backgrounds and all that are kept away from guns (matter of fact, if they have a nasty criminal background, they should be in jail, not out and about where they're able to easily get a hold of a gun). And those that keep them in their homes have to be responsible with them and make sure their family and friends don't mess around with them, either.

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Originally posted by all_i_want
there are non-lethal weapons out there. stuff like electric batons such. there are other means of protecting yourself and your family if you are feeling extremely threatened. dont tell me guns are simply for self protection. if we are talking about a civil society here, the citizens CAN NOT take law into their own hands. people who want guns want them because they are power obsessed megalomaniacs who think they cant go wrong.
While it's true that guns aren't just used for self-protection, and while it's true that there are people out there who use them for purposes that are very dangerous and scary, there are some people out there who do guns for self-protection and self-protection only, and so if they want to keep a handgun in their home for that purpose, that's their choice. And you could use non-lethal weapons, sure, but depending on what you use, the attacker could be out for a short time, but then be back up and trying to hurt the family again. If someone's attacking me, m family, or my friends, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop the attacker, even if it means killing them in the process.

Quote:
originally posted by all_i_want
as for people who see hunting as a 'sport' and need to keep their hunting rifles around just in case they see something nice to shoot, i have got two words for you

Hunting for sport, I agree, is dumb. But hunting for food purposes, I don't have a problem with that.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
also, on another note, for those of you who havent watched the last daily show, something from NYT:
dozens of terror suspects on federal watch lists were allowed to purchase firearms in the US last year.
And as long as we have good gun control laws in place, we can work hard to make sure that doesn't happen.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
and as NRA president wayne lapierre told CBS, it is shameful, it is shameful that those suspects' right to bear arms is being threatened.

interviewer: if its good enough for FBI to put them on a watch list, why isnt it good enough for NRA to say dont sell them a gun?
lapierre: because what is a watch list after all?

I'm going to say this right now-the NRA scare me. Seriously. They're just as bad as those who think a flat out ban on guns will solve all the problems. And that LaPierre guy is a moron-we watched a video on the NRA in my American Government class my senior year when we were talking about special interest groups, and...yeah...that guy has issues.

Angela
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Old 03-22-2005, 09:11 PM   #62
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I somehow doubt that the bastard was planning on joining the NRA and going to sport shooting events or hunting trips with his friends.

Messed up neo-nazi punks with guns kill people ~ mentally stable and responsible adults who are careful and must be responsible or loose their right to bear arms are not that dangerous. We have tight gun laws in Australia and our rates of violent crime have not changed drastically since they were put in place ~ criminals still have guns and shootings still occur, somebody mentioned Canada as another and Switzerland is also where you have high rates of firearm ownership and low rates of violent crime.

In a free society citizens should be entitled to own guns ~ if they are shown to be irresponsible with that then that right must be forfeited.

Guns are tools, I don't think that they are good protection or will make people safer in the context of suburbia ~ blaming everything from video games, TV violence, the Millitary Industrial Complex to gun ownership really just shifts the debate around ignoring the simple fact that some people are truly fucked up and one way or another they can do a lot of damage. Piss poor parenting is another factor which is not exclusively to do with low wage jobs and long hours (although that is definitely a contributing factor).

p.s. Just so you don't go thinking this is a purely US phenomena
Quote:
Three teenage boys have been arrested for allegedly conspiring to seize control of a school and methodically murder some of its students and teachers.

Police found gunpowder and other material used for making pipe bombs at the boys’ homes and believe the youths had practised making bombs.

The boys, aged 15 to 17, were Saint John air cadets and their alleged plot was planned for April 20, the anniversary of the 1999 Columbine High School massacre where 12 students and a teacher were killed.

At a Saint John bail hearing for the two eldest teenagers on Wednesday, police Constable Rick Russell said the boys were plotting a “planned takeover” of Saint John High where one of the boys is a pupil. The other two are from Harbourview High.

He said the boys had been practising making bombs for some time, and were planning to attack the school’s administration offices with explosives, where they intended to kill the principal and other officials with bombs and guns. He said the boys then planned to order a list of “hated” students into the offices, one by one, to be executed.

Const. Russell said police had found writing by the boys naming the people they planned to kill.

He said the 17-year-old had also written: “I hate my life ... I hate everyone."
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=e1cb2caa-7ffa-4863-aa59-3ada842d84bc
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Old 03-23-2005, 07:15 AM   #63
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1. I knew this was going to bring back up the gun debate. But remember, this kid was 16, he could not own or buy a gun. He STOLE it from his police officer grandfather that he murdered. So even in a country where guns were illegal, the cop still would have had one, and it could still have been stolen. Also, I remember a school shooting in Germany a couple years ago, and guns are not legal there, so it doesn't mean a person can't get one anyway. And yes, there are many more ways to kill somebody except for guns!

2. I guess I feel about the gun issue the way many of you do about abortion- I hate guns, I don't like hunting, and I don't want to be anywhere around guns, yet I still don't believe the government should take them away from citizens.

3. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school, I can understand how a kid can be driven to this. It's not the guns we need to stop, it's the assholes who pick on kids. Teachers usually don't even bother to stop it and think you should just 'ignore' it. If it hasn't happened to you, you don't understand the deep scars on your mind and self esteem that last a lifetime. It's not funny, it's not cool, it's not okay. It should be stopped. The kids who do the picking are the ones who need the 'counseling', they must be very sick individuals to take pleasure from hurting someone. If more were done to stop it, there would be less of this going on. Not to excuse him of course. I may have had my daydreams of wiping out my tormentors, but that's as far as it went. Something is wrong with a person who takes it that far. I am sorry for all involved.
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Old 03-23-2005, 07:38 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
In a free society citizens should be entitled to own guns ~ if they are shown to be irresponsible with that then that right must be forfeited.
I agree. On the contrary to what some may believe, most purchase firearms to protect themselves.
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Old 03-23-2005, 09:25 AM   #65
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I agree. On the contrary to what some may believe, most purchase firearms to protect themselves.

protect themselves from what?
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Old 03-23-2005, 09:27 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



protect themselves from what?
other people with guns of course!
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Old 03-23-2005, 09:42 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Irvine511
protect themselves from what?
http://www.wagc.com/GunsSaveLives.html

Guns Save Lives
My husband and I were accosted in Phoenix one evening (about 6PM) in a public parking lot (well lighted) by four individuals who wanted our truck (and who knows what else). If we had not been armed, they would have had the truck and anything else they may well have wanted. The police were no where in sight and when we contacted them the next day all they said was, "what were you doing on that street at that time of the evening? We don't even go there after dark."
I agree with what has already been stated and is well documented, "courts have long held that the police are under no obligation to protect individual citizens. Linda

The first time I used my gun in self defense I was leaving work late. It was dark and the parking lot was empty. Our office building was on a road off the main streets where the traffic was. The building was surrounded by woods. The other office building in the area were empty. No one would see me leaving. Except the man who was waiting in the shadows for me to leave. I had my gun purse in which I carried my colt mustang plus II 380. As I was walking towards my car I heard a man say "hey baby, looking good" I couldn't see him. I just kept walking. I heard foot steps and then he said "where ya going? Your not afraid are you?" I could tell he was closer now from the sound of his voice. I reached the side of my car which put the car between us and turned to face him. He had a knife in his hand which shined so I could see it clearly. He said "give it up easy and I won't cut you too bad" so I pulled out my gun (which I keep a bullet chambered and the safety on, all I have to do is take the safety off.) I pointed it at him and remembering the line from the untouchables movie with Sean Connery, I said "not too smart bringing a knife to a gunfight" he put the knife away as he backed up. He put his hands in the air and without saying a word ran away. I wished after that I had made him drop the knife before he ran away so he wouldn't have that knife at least to use on someone else and maybe I could have given it to the police. He had gloves on so I don't know if they could get fingerprints. Besides him hiding in the shadows waiting, the gloves also show he had planned an attack. Without that gun what would have happened? No one would have seen anything and no one would have heard me scream. The other story I'll save for another time. I had to protect myself with lethal force it's a hard story to tell. Theresa/ FL

Used gun? My husband did, We were approached by two men in an alley. They informed my husband that they wanted his money and his "woman" Thank God that he had a gun, the mere display of his firearm convinced them to seek an easier "unarmed" target. Roxanne
On august 2nd, 1997 at 12:40 a.m. intruders kicked my front door in. They had gloves, masks and cammo type jackets. One said something like lay down or get down ma'am. I didn't ! I ran to where my husband was sleeping. I was screaming help to my husband while running and while trying to hold the intruders out of our bedroom. As I was on one side of the bedroom door they were beating the other side of the door. As my husband got out of bed and came to where I was, the door broke across me and broke some of my ribs. In the dark, the intruders shot into our bedroom at my husband and myself. My husband fought and took the guys back to the livingroom. At the same time I am calling 911. I told them we were being shot, my address, and hung up.
I reached over in our headboard and got my husbands gun. He had always told me to take the safety off and cock it. I did so. I didn't want to shoot my husband so I thought if I shot over their heads they would run and I would not accidently hit my husband with a bullet. They didn't run. One came towards me firing and I ran. Through all of this I was shot twice, as was my husband. After running to my bedroom, the intruder didn't follow me all the way to the room because he now knew I had a gun also. I peeked out of my room and saw the intruders hand/gun squatted by my refrigerator. I slid across a small wall between my room and dining room which leads back to the living room where the intruder was squatted and the other intruder(s) was fighting my husband.
I fired at the intruder that was squatted waiting on me to come out the other way. He was shot twice also. Through all of this, when the intruder decides to leave out, he finds his ride had left, so he comes back in and put a shot gun to my head for the keys to my husbands truck. As I stand bleeding from two gun shots to the chest and through the back I begged this intruder to not shoot me anymore.
He took the keys from my hand and left. He also left his face in my memory forever because when he went outside he had pulled his mask up on his head and my husband and I saw his face. He also left his buddy or best friend dead in our yard from gun shot wounds which I put in him. He also for what ever reason, on purpose or accident, ran over his buddy with our truck. He now is serving 5 life terms for his part in the crime. And the driver who should of faced the same crimes only received 5 years for his part. The intruder in my yard received a death sentence. As for us the victims, I received a sentence of taking a persons life not by choice but by the will of self defense. If you had asked me before August of 1997 my beliefs on guns, I would have told you I did not like guns, did not want guns in our home, and was against guns and what I thought guns did.

Today I speak every chance I get to tell people why it is so important to uphold our right to bear arms. I am living proof that guns save lives. I spoke at the white house with president Clinton and about 20 women on the gun issue on good morning live. I was one of the few that was there on the right to bear arms. Most were their because they had lost children to guns and crime. At this forum of women there were cat fights in between taping. By the time I spoke I was so mad at some of these women that I was to tears. It is very sad that it wasn't okay that their child had died at the hands of guns ,but it wasn't okay that a gun had saved my life. One women there after I told her that if I would of had a gun lock on my gun that night that I probably would not be here today and her response was what a loss that would be. So what she was saying was I am not important to my family like her son was important to her family. What a sad day for me. That is when I knew that some at the million mom march was there to see that all guns are banned. Guns have been around longer than you and I. Guns is what made America a free country. It is our society that needs to change not the issue of guns. When I was a child there was guns in our home but I didn't nor did my friends go and kill our school mates or teachers. So we need to look at what has caused the problem to correct the problem. But that doesn't include taking my right to bear arms.
Signed Susan Gonzalez/Jacksonville, FL.
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Old 03-23-2005, 09:48 AM   #68
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and for every case of a citizen defending themselves with a firearm -- hey, can't they just as easily defend themselves with a knife! a rock! a car! -- we have many more homocides that would never have occurred without the presence of a handgun, whether in domestic violence situations, crazy crackhead muggings, school shootings, and accidents.

yes, guns can protect; but do they protect more than they kill?
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:00 AM   #69
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Depends on who is holding the weapon.


If only we could teach right and wrong......
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:01 AM   #70
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Originally posted by Irvine511
and for every case of a citizen defending themselves with a firearm -- hey, can't they just as easily defend themselves with a knife! a rock! a car!
Yet the irony is that when someone uses these examples as a way to state that you don't need a gun to commit murder, gun control passionates reject this argument.
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:02 AM   #71
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Yet the irony is that when someone uses these examples as a way to state that you don't need a gun to commit murder, gun control passionates reject this argument.

oy.

i was being ironic -- and using your, and other's, previously stated logic of "well, you can kill someone with a rock, so a gun is no different" because i think that's totally bogus -- guns make it super easy to kill someone in a way that a knife, or a rock, or a gun never, ever will.
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:06 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
oy.

i was being ironic -- and using your, and other's, previously stated logic of "well, you can kill someone with a rock, so a gun is no different" because i think that's totally bogus -- guns make it super easy to kill someone in a way that a knife, or a rock, or a gun never, ever will.
Thanks for the explanation.

Although - banning guns altogether will not stop bombings, stabbings, beatings, or any of that. In fact, it would worry me that criminals could acquire guns illegally, and the law abiders would have no option to protect themselves.
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:07 AM   #73
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Depends on who is holding the weapon.


If only we could teach right and wrong......

well, yes, that is the root of the problem. though i would argue less for black and white notions of "right and wrong" and more for ethics, and responsibility, and teaching that violence is not an acceptable way to solve problems (though this gets hard when our government doesn't seem to agree...)

as i've said repeatedly: gun control is not the answer, but it is a help. i do not want guns made illegally, and in this particular case, no gun control law would have made a difference.

however, when we pull back and look at our culture as a whole, i think it is clear that more guns make us less safe, and one way to address the violence in our society is to reduce, if not altogether remove, the easiest, most convenient, cheapest way to kill someone.

remember: in the USA, there are more gun stores than gas stations.
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