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Old 03-22-2005, 02:37 PM   #46
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Just taking guns out of our culture is a nice idea, but it's not realistic. At this point, the people who are going to commit crimes with guns will easily get them anyhow. The law abiding citizens who want guns for hunting or protection will simply be less able to protect themselves. There's no way you can just take guns out of the equation, and I don't think making criminals the only ones with guns is going to help anything. I mean, according to your plan, we should just automatically disarm the police as well, since guns are no longer necessary?

You can kill people with a knife, poison, a vehicle, anything. I think there's a deeper problem here, that some of you would just like to attribute to gun ownership. As if this never would happen if people didn't have access to a particular type of weapon.
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:38 PM   #47
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a pocket knife on a cross country flight would be very useful to open a bag of beef jerky
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:39 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
Angela:

but the fact remains that this kid, without a gun, would not have killed 10 people. maybe he would have done other things, but you wouldn't have had a massacre without a gun.

homemade bombs?
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:54 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal


homemade bombs?


that requires a bunch of legal materials assembled illegally. requires time, effort, knowhow, etc.

a gun is designed to kill. you purchase it for the purpose of killing, or projecting the threat of killing.

these are important distinctions when it comes to the regulation of products in our society.
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:56 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
Angela:

but the fact remains that this kid, without a gun, would not have killed 10 people. maybe he would have done other things, but you wouldn't have had a massacre without a gun.
As pointed out, there's homemade bombs, too. Geez, if you hit someone hard enough and in just the right part of the body, you could kill them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i agree with your point that most people are responsible, and most people use guns to hunt. but that's not always the situation,
Exactly, so we need to find a way to stop those kinds of situations from happening-we need to teach people about taking responsiblity for their own actions, we need to get parents to wise up and realize that it's up to them to teach their children to stay away from things they aren't meant to be near, such as guns, we need to figure out what exactly makes a kid want to go out and do something this horrible, etc., etc. But taking guns away wouldn't solve the problem, as people could still obtain them other ways, and it wouldn't be fair to those who are responsible with their guns.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and besides, if you were using a gun to hunt, why not keep it at the hunting club?
Do all people who own guns also belong to hunting clubs?

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
there are guns that are available to peolpe that have no purpose other than to kill other people -- they are not for hunting. do people use shotguns to hunt? .38 magnums? saturday-night specials?
Here I will agree that there needs to be some gun control laws in place with these-I do think having those kinds of guns is unnecessary, unless you're part of the military or on the police force or something.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i suppose what i'm saying is that guns are 100% unique, and they must be treated as such; and the mere presence of a gun is more likely to make someone kill.

so, yes, guns help people kill people, more than a rock or knife or car can help you kill someone.
I don't agree with that-if someone really wants to kill somebody, they will have that urge no matter what it is they're holding in their hands. And if they have nothing in their hands, they'll use their actual hands to carry out the act.

Angela
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:07 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel




I don't agree with that-if someone really wants to kill somebody, they will have that urge no matter what it is they're holding in their hands. And if they have nothing in their hands, they'll use their actual hands to carry out the act.

Angela

Ok,

take a prison population

1000 inmates

after a year, say 3 murders
Quote:
And if they have nothing in their hands, they'll use their actual hands to carry out the act.
i concede your point
if the question was
can we stop ALL killing?


take that same

prison population, 1000 inmates
one year and then add
say ---5 guns with ammo,

how many murders now?

what will you concede?
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:09 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel

I don't agree with that-if someone really wants to kill somebody, they will have that urge no matter what it is they're holding in their hands. And if they have nothing in their hands, they'll use their actual hands to carry out the act.

here's a point of disagreement, then.

i think that if i really wanted to kill someone, and thought it through, i would come to the conclusion that a gun is the easiest way to kill someone. however, if i didn't have a gun, and still wanted to kill them, then i would try and find another way. but perhaps the unavailability of the gun is enough of a deterrant for me.

or perhaps i don't really want to kill anyone, but i get very upset with my spouse one night. we scream and yell and throw things and suddenly she (this is a hypothetical) grabs my gun and starts yelling at me, waving it around. it goes off. i'm dead.

or perhaps my 12 year old boy is being picked on at school. my mother and i are too busy working at Wal-Mart and getting paid shitty wages and no benefits to be able to be the kinds of parents he deserves. he's frustrated, and small for his age, and is sick of getting picked on at recess. he sees my gun. he's smart. i've told him not to touch it, i've told him about gun safety -- but he's smart. he takes the gun, brings it to school, and blows away the bullies. and then himself.

these are relatively common situations where the simple presence of a gun creates a solution to a problem -- death -- that would not have been available had a gun not been in a house.

i agree that there's a deeper problem here. absolutely. i also agree, and have said, that gun control is a treatment for the symptom, not the illness. however, there are some guns that have no business in anyone's homes, and the fact remains: guns are 100% unique.

and i brought up hunting clubs because you said earlier that most people who have guns use them for hunting. fine. keep them at the hunting club then!
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
here's a point of disagreement, then.

i think that if i really wanted to kill someone, and thought it through, i would come to the conclusion that a gun is the easiest way to kill someone. however, if i didn't have a gun, and still wanted to kill them, then i would try and find another way. but perhaps the unavailability of the gun is enough of a deterrant for me.
It might be a deterrant for you. For other people, not so much.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
or perhaps i don't really want to kill anyone, but i get very upset with my spouse one night. we scream and yell and throw things and suddenly she (this is a hypothetical) grabs my gun and starts yelling at me, waving it around. it goes off. i'm dead.
Again, though, if the gun's in a place where you can't just easily grab it, it's less of a problem. And sure, she could grab a gun and it could kill you, but she could also grab a knife, too, and in the heat of the moment, she stabs you. I've heard of that happening before, too. I know knives aren't used just for killing things, unlike guns, but they're still as much a danger in a house as a gun can be.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
or perhaps my 12 year old boy is being picked on at school. my mother and i are too busy working at Wal-Mart and getting paid shitty wages and no benefits to be able to be the kinds of parents he deserves. he's frustrated, and small for his age, and is sick of getting picked on at recess. he sees my gun. he's smart. i've told him not to touch it, i've told him about gun safety -- but he's smart. he takes the gun, brings it to school, and blows away the bullies. and then himself.
My parents worked some really crappy low-paying jobs throughout their lives, and they still made sure to be the best parents they could be to my sister and me, and they were. You can have the crappiest paying job in the world, but you've still got kids to raise, you still have to be there for them as often as possible, you've still got to find ways to help them with any problems they're having, you've still got to teach them to not use a gun to solve their problems.

Besides that, so the guns are gone from the house-he can still use his fists to hurt those who are hurting him, or he can still bring other various weapons to school and go after the specific kid(s) that are bugging him. And he can kill himself by taking pills or hanging himself or something like that, too. There was a story in People magazine a long time back of an 8 year old girl whose parents constantly left her alone while they went off on their lavish vacations. The little girl was having some emotional problems, and she called her mom one day to talk to her. Her mom noticed the number on her phone, and yet didn't bother to pick it up, because she didn't think it was anything of major importance, as her daughter called her from time to time anyway. She comes home from her vacation, and goes to her daughter's room to let her know she's back. Her daughter is dead-she'd hung herself. Don't think that family had any guns, either, and they certainly weren't poor, as her mom was able to go on lavish vacations.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
these are relatively common situations where the simple presence of a gun creates a solution to a problem -- death -- that would not have been available had a gun not been in a house.
And as indicated in my post, I think there's still other ways these problems can easily occur.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i agree that there's a deeper problem here. absolutely. i also agree, and have said, that gun control is a treatment for the symptom, not the illness. however, there are some guns that have no business in anyone's homes, and the fact remains: guns are 100% unique.
And I will agree that a simple handgun, or hunting rifles, would be more than enough for a family-I do think having assault rifles around in your home is going a bit overboard.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and i brought up hunting clubs because you said earlier that most people who have guns use them for hunting. fine. keep them at the hunting club then!
Oh, I know why you brought them up-I was just wondering if everyone who owns hunting guns also belongs to hunting clubs-nobody in my family hunts, and I don't have any friends whose family hunts, so I don't know if everyone who owns hunting guns also belong to hunting clubs, and so I was just curious. If someone who owns a hunting gun doesn't belong to a hunting club at the same time, though, then they really couldn't leave the thing there. But if they do belong to a hunting club, then yeah, I'd agree that that'd probably be the best place to keep the gun.

Also, deep, again, I'm not denying that if guns are around, there's a chance that someone will use the thing. I'm just saying that if someone really wanted to kill somebody, it doesn't matter if they have a gun or if they have some other weapon, they'll use it. If the jails were full of guys with knives, there'd be just as much chance for the same number of murders to occur as there would be if the jail was full of guys with guns. It doesn't take much to hurt someone with a knife-you don't have to stab someone in the back to kill them-you can swipe them across the face with a knife and that'd be enough to do some serious damage, and if you get them just right, and they lose enough blood, you could kill them. So if a guy wanted to take out a good number of people with a knife, he could find a way to do so. And if he had a bunch of knives on him, well, hey...

Besides that, most jails try to keep all the criminals from having any weapons of any kind anyway, be they guns or knives or anything else. They take away freakin' nail files there.

Angela
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:54 PM   #54
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i agree with the spirit of your post, but i think a lot of it is wishful thinking.

what i'm saying is that a gun makes you more likely to kill someone than anything else. guns don't kill people, but they make it a heck of a lot easier for people to kill people.

anything else.

more guns = more dead kids
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:57 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


anything else.

more guns = more dead kids
the point of my previous post

we can not stop killing

we can only lessen the number of victims
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Old 03-22-2005, 04:30 PM   #56
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ok, we get it, there are MANY ways to kill people. you can stab them to death, but that would be kinda messy. a gun is so much easier!

right, we can not ban all lethal objects. but the ones we can, we must. guns are not like knives or baseball bats, they serve only one purpose, to kill!

also, i do see your point that if a high school student who has undergone commando training wanted to kill a bunch of his classmates, he could very well do so with a swiss army knife. but then, it just isnt as easy as killing them with a gun - not that spectacular either. and the worst part, you cant cause the same kind of damage, you'll have all these potential victims that might be able to run away, and you sure as hell are not gonna stand that!

lets talk about this the other way around. why do people need guns? constitutionally, against the king of england. but really, is it because the like shooting? is it for self protection? or is it because it is a device that gives them the ultimate decision making power - a decision between life and death. now, i dont see WHY people would need magnums or shotguns. could someone please tell this to me? is there any way to justify this?

gun control will not stop murders. it will only REDUCE them. the way i see it, less dead people is BETTER than more dead people! what is so hard to grasp about here?

there are non-lethal weapons out there. stuff like electric batons such. there are other means of protecting yourself and your family if you are feeling extremely threatened. dont tell me guns are simply for self protection. if we are talking about a civil society here, the citizens CAN NOT take law into their own hands. people who want guns want them because they are power obsessed megalomaniacs who think they cant go wrong.

as for people who see hunting as a 'sport' and need to keep their hunting rifles around just in case they see something nice to shoot, i have got two words for you



also, on another note, for those of you who havent watched the last daily show, something from NYT:
dozens of terror suspects on federal watch lists were allowed to purchase firearms in the US last year..

and as NRA president wayne lapierre told CBS, it is shameful, it is shameful that those suspects' right to bear arms is being threatened.

interviewer: if its good enough for FBI to put them on a watch list, why isnt it good enough for NRA to say dont sell them a gun?
lapierre: because what is a watch list after all?

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Old 03-22-2005, 04:35 PM   #57
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guns suck.
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Old 03-22-2005, 04:55 PM   #58
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Originally posted by U2democrat
guns suck.
yeah.. that kinda sums up the point i was trying to make
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Old 03-22-2005, 05:13 PM   #59
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Old 03-22-2005, 08:40 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
The constitution entitles it.
With all due respect, Mac, the constituition entitles me to stand on my head and fart the national anthem if i wish - that doesn't mean I need to (or indeed plan to) do so.

Small rant (not aimed at you Mac, but just in general):

"It's my right to own a lethal weapon". No shit, Sherlock. I'm somewhat more concerned with a kids' right to go to school and not get murdered by some gun wielding psychopath. Kiss my arse, Charlton Heston, you worthless knob.

Not my most cogent, sensible, or balanced comment, I freely admit, but I stand by it nonetheless.
Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Please don't blame this on gun ownership! The kid stole his fathers police issued gun.

You guys always want to boil these things down to politics - it's really more about what was in this kid's head than anything else.

Well, you've got a good point there.


Quote:

Anyways, what a tragedy.
Too right. I remember we had a huge hoo-hah over this back in 1996, in Dunblane, Scotland, when some psycho bastard shot sixteen 5 and 6 year old children, and one teacher. It was pretty horrendous to say the least, we were all stunned.

Prince Philip is a stupid bigmouthed brainless baboon at the best of times. 2 days after the shooting, he decided to announce that there was no point arguing about gun ownership, because the killer could have done the same damage with a baseball bat. WHAT THE FUCK?!!

Yes, you senile inbred imbecile, because the man could have killed 17 people just as quickly and easily with a bat, as with bullets. What a stupid, moronic point of view. Maybe if it had been a case of some nutter beating someone to death with a baseball bat, in the middle of nowhere, with nobody else around for miles, and no means of anyone escaping or getting help, then I might believe that point. In the real circumstances? Ridiculous suggestion.
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