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Old 03-22-2005, 08:01 AM   #31
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BEMIDJI, Minn. (Reuters) - A 17-year-old who killed nine people and himself on a Minnesota Indian reservation identified himself as an "angel of death" and a "NativeNazi" on Internet postings, a newspaper reported on Tuesday.

Officials sealed off the remote town of Red Lake, 60 miles south of the Canadian border, while they investigated Monday's bloodbath, the worst U.S. school shooting since the 1999 Columbine massacre.

Floyd Jourdain Jr., chairman of the Red Lake Indian council, called the tragedy "the darkest day in the history of our tribe."

The shooter was Red Lake High School sophomore Jeff Weise, according to witnesses and school officials.

Weise identified himself in Internet site postings as "Todesengel," German for "angel of death" and "NativeNazi," the St. Paul Pioneer Press reported.

He also claimed to have been questioned by police in 2004 about an alleged plot to shoot up the school on the anniversary of Adolf Hitler's birthday, but said he had nothing to do with that, the report said.

"I guess I've always carried a natural admiration for Hitler and his ideals, and his courage to take on larger nations," the newspaper quoted Weise as saying in one forum used by neo-Nazis.

Other reports described Weise as someone who was often teased at the school.

Weise's rampage began when he shot dead his grandfather, identified as veteran tribal police officer Daryl "Dash" Lussier, and Lussier's girlfriend at their home.

The gunman then drove his grandfather's police car to the school, where he killed a male security guard, a teacher and five students before taking his own, the FBIsaid.

"We believe the shooter was acting alone," said FBI agent Paul McCabe, adding the dead at the school were all in one room.

The gunman fired at doors of classrooms barricaded by terrified students and teachers, witnesses said.

"He came into the school and the first person he shot was the security officer at the door," said Molly Miron, editor of the Bemidji Pioneer newspaper. "One of the students told me he pointed his gun at a boy and then changed his mind, smiled, waved at him, and shot somebody else."

Police, alerted to the massacre when students used cell phones to call for help, said they exchanged gunfire with the gunman, who ducked into a classroom and shot himself.

Witnesses said he was armed with a shotgun or rifle and at least one handgun.

It was the deadliest U.S. school shooting since the April 20, 1999, Columbine High School massacre in Colorado in which 14 students -- including the two killers -- and a teacher died.

The Minnesota reservation is controlled by the Ojibwa tribe, commonly known as the Chippewa, which says it has roughly 10,000 members, about half of whom live on the reservation.

The tribe runs its own affairs and operates casinos in the state and a small casino in Red Lake, 35 miles north of Bemidji on the shores of Lower Red Lake. But the casinos are not as successful as others in more populous areas and unemployment on the reservation is high.

It was the latest multiple shooting in a month of deadly gun violence in the United States, including the deaths of seven congregants at a church service near Milwaukee and four people in an Atlanta courtroom escape.
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Old 03-22-2005, 08:07 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher
The United States ranks 24th in the world in intentional homicides per capita. People killing eachother is not something unique to the US.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
But consider the countries above it, with the likes of Colombia, Zimbabwe, Mexico, Ukraine, etc. And the next highly developed country on that list is Finland (at #30), with a homicide rate roughly half of that of the USA.
But this isn't about homicides, it's about shooting people. And on the ranking of Murders With Firearms, the USA is 8th.
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/grap...ur_wit_fir_cap
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Old 03-22-2005, 08:36 AM   #33
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Shooting someone is a homicide. Whether you set out to kill someone using a gun, a knife, a rock, a bomb, a car, etc., killing someone is killing someone. Simply becuase someone uses a gun to kill someone doesn't make the act any more grievous.
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Old 03-22-2005, 08:47 AM   #34
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Originally posted by swissair135
Why do Americans need to own guns?

More guns = more shootings
Don't even start with gun ownership.

Problems like this start with the parents and the family environment. We are so worried about calling someone a "bad parent" and so unwilling to help out families that need emotional support, that we point the finger just about everywhere else.
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Old 03-22-2005, 08:50 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher
Shooting someone is a homicide. Whether you set out to kill someone using a gun, a knife, a rock, a bomb, a car, etc., killing someone is killing someone. Simply becuase someone uses a gun to kill someone doesn't make the act any more grievous.

you're right, but it still remains that a knife, a rock, and a car are not intended to kill people. the intent of the design of a gun is death no matter how you slice it. the proper use of a knife or car will not result in death; the proper use of a gun will.

i do agree that many people are responsible with their guns, and that many people do live in areas where they need guns for self defense from, say, bears and moose. however, i do think that guns fall into a special category and we can't simply dismiss murder with a firearm as the same thing as murder with a rock or a knife or a car. to simply say "well, people have been killing each other forever" doesn't mean that it's a good thing, nor does it mean that attempting to change and regulate society in order to reduce the number of homocides. while gun control is a treatment of the symptom rather than the disease, it is an important step. you're correct in that guns do not fire on their own -- unless your 6 year old comes across your loaded gun and drops it and blows her head off ... *then* that gun killed someone -- and that someone is making a decision to pull that trigger. however, the ease of killing with a gun, and the immense amount of power the possession of a gun wields, means that the gun itself is part of the problem. do you think that 10 people would have been killed as easily by a rock or a knife or a car? while this individual might have found another way to kill, the availability of a gun and the ease with which it allows one to accomplish it's only objective (to kill) makes the gun an accomplice in the crime. guns enable death unlike any other product in society.
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:01 AM   #36
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what a great time to be a public high schooler.....

my high school is actually eerilly similar to columbine...........
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
to simply say "well, people have been killing each other forever" doesn't mean that it's a good thing, nor does it mean that attempting to change and regulate society in order to reduce the number of homocides.
I don't think he was trying to imply that it was a good or natural thing or anything like that-he was simply saying that we've been using many things to kill each other for years, and that we're going to keep this tragic cycle going until we figure out why people are so intent on killing each other in the first place. And there's nothing wrong whatsoever with trying to change society so that this doesn't happen anymore-nobody likes hearing about this stuff (unless they're really sick in the head), and we certainly don't want to hear about school shootings happening anymore. We're just saying going around banning guns and things along that line won't solve the problems. nbcrusader's absolutely right about it all starting with the parents and family environment, and taking personal responsiblity for your own actions as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
you're correct in that guns do not fire on their own -- unless your 6 year old comes across your loaded gun and drops it and blows her head off ... *then* that gun killed someone -- and that someone is making a decision to pull that trigger.
If someone is holding a gun and pulls the trigger, that was their choice. There's people who've held guns and can't bring themselves to pull the trigger, too. So long as the gun's just sitting there, it can't do anything to anybody.

And if a 6 year old girl is able to get hold of a gun that easily, again, we've got to be asking where in the world her parents were when she found it, and why they didn't think to put it in a safer place and why they didn't think to teach her not to touch it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
do you think that 10 people would have been killed as easily by a rock or a knife or a car?
Rocks and knives perhaps not so much, but cars certainly can kill a good deal of people...what about all those pileups you hear about on the roads from time to time due to something or other? I just heard a story yesterday about a pileup that happened in Arizona one year in which 10 people did die. Someone on there was saying that it's a good thing they managed to stop more cars from traveling into this whole mess, otherwise that death toll could've been a lot higher. And there've been crashes where a good number of people were killed because there was a family in one car and a group of kids out on a joyride in another. Seriously, that's one reason I've been holding off on driving on my own and all that (among other ones)-I've seen some of the loons I'd have to share the road with, and that quite frankly scares the hell out of me.

Angela
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:22 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel

If someone is holding a gun and pulls the trigger, that was their choice. There's people who've held guns and can't bring themselves to pull the trigger, too. So long as the gun's just sitting there, it can't do anything to anybody.

And if a 6 year old girl is able to get hold of a gun that easily, again, we've got to be asking where in the world her parents were when she found it, and why they didn't think to put it in a safer place and why they didn't think to teach her not to touch it.

i'm sorry, i don't agree. yes, as i stated, responsibility lies with the person who pulled the trigger, but the only purpose of a gun is to kill. it's job is to kill, and the presence of a gun in a household -- as opposed to a rock, a knife, or a car -- makes the probability of a homocide occuring at that house skyrocket. guns enable death in a way that *nothing* else produced does.

why should a 6 year old be dead because she had bad parents? and what about the 11 year old who knows where his dad keeps the key, keeps the bullets, and gets the gun and takes it to school? the mere presence of a gun makes a house and its inhabitants much less safe. and is an angry 11 year old really making a conscious decision to shoot a friend? was it really *his* choice?
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn


But consider the countries above it, with the likes of Colombia, Zimbabwe, Mexico, Ukraine, etc. And the next highly developed country on that list is Finland (at #30), with a homicide rate roughly half of that of the USA.
yeah... but consider the situation of each country.... Colombia, for example, is in the middle of a military situation, and the goverment is making a great effort to destroy all the drugs business wich means more violence.

here, possesing guns is not allowed for common people but there are shootings anyway , and there are cases like the one is this thread about. I think that it doesn't matter if it is allowed or not having guns... but i really think that if you carry a gun you will have to choose if you use it or not and sometimes it seems to be the first solution to some situations.

I feel that many people has lost the sense of value of the human life, and I'm not talking just about the serial killers or rapists. Sometimes i found this like a scary black hole of the human nature... why do we have weapons?
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:35 PM   #40
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RED LAKE, Minnesota (CNN) -- A student who authorities said killed seven people at a northern Minnesota high school drove to the school in his grandfather's police car.

FBI Special Agent in Charge Michael Tabman said Tuesday that Jeff Weise, 16, killed his grandfather, Daryl Lussier, and his grandfather's girlfriend, Michelle Sigana, with a .22-caliber gun Monday before going to Red Lake Senior High School.

Tabman said authorities believe Weise stole his grandfather's police-issued pistol and a shot gun as well as a bulletproof vest. Authorities said he had three guns in all.

At the school, Weise shot and killed 28-year-old Derrick Brun, an unarmed security guard, then saw teacher Neva Winnecoup-Rogers in the hall, Tabman said.

According to Tabman, Weise, wearing the police vest, followed Rogers into her classroom where he shot and killed five students -- Thurlene Stillday, 15; Chase Lussier, 15, Chenelle Rosebear, 15, Alicia Spike, 14, Dwayne Lewis, 15.

FBI Special Agent Paul McCabe would not say if Chase Lussier was related to Daryl Lussier, age 58.

Tabman said there was a videotape shot in the school during the shooting but that it only showed Weise in the hallway and not in any classroom.
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:01 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i'm sorry, i don't agree. yes, as i stated, responsibility lies with the person who pulled the trigger, but the only purpose of a gun is to kill.
Yes. And most people who own guns use them to hunt for food, not to kill people.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and the presence of a gun in a household -- as opposed to a rock, a knife, or a car -- makes the probability of a homocide occuring at that house skyrocket. guns enable death in a way that *nothing* else produced does.
Yes, that makes it a lot more risky, having guns in the house, no doubt about that. But then again, there are households in which people own guns and there haven't been any accidental deaths, too. What about those families-why is it they've been lucky enough to not suffer such tragedies, and others have?

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
why should a 6 year old be dead because she had bad parents?
She shouldn't be. Again, if her parents were smart enough to keep the gun out of reach of her, and if they made sure she knew not to touch that gun, and kept an eye on her whenever she went near wherever the gun was (I would hope parents wouldn't be stupid enough to leave a 6 year old girl alone at home for a good number of hours), she wouldn't be dead.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and what about the 11 year old who knows where his dad keeps the key, keeps the bullets, and gets the gun and takes it to school?
Again, why didn't his parents teach him to stay away from that gun? Why didn't his parents teach him that taking a gun to school isn't allowed, that you don't use a gun to solve your problems with classmates?

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
the mere presence of a gun makes a house and its inhabitants much less safe.
It adds a risk of danger, yes, but again, not every household that owns guns has fallen prey to accidental shootings. Why is that?

I have no desire to have a gun in my home, personally, but if a family is responsible with the gun that's in their house, there shouldn't be any problems.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and is an angry 11 year old really making a conscious decision to shoot a friend? was it really *his* choice?
That's what some people have said in this thread-we need to figure out why the kid acted the way he did.

Angela
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:26 PM   #42
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In Singapore guns and firearms are banned.

Shootings do happen due to theft of firearms from security officers and policemen, but these are few and far between.

School violence is actually quite a big problem here. There have been cases of kids being beaten up and in some awful cases actually been knifed.

Will banning guns in America help? Possibly. It does limit at least one avenue for carrying out any such horrific acts, but if a kid is dead set on these types of deeds, I think he could find a lot of ways around it.
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:28 PM   #43
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it's not the first case, i can't understand how boys get so easily with guns inside the schools...it's simply amazing, how can this happen??!!
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:35 PM   #44
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Don't even start with box-cutter or pocket knife control


box-cutters and pocket knifes are useful and have been carried for hundreds of years

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Old 03-22-2005, 02:36 PM   #45
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Angela:

but the fact remains that this kid, without a gun, would not have killed 10 people. maybe he would have done other things, but you wouldn't have had a massacre without a gun.

i agree with your point that most people are responsible, and most people use guns to hunt. but that's not always the situation, and besides, if you were using a gun to hunt, why not keep it at the hunting club?

there are guns that are available to peolpe that have no purpose other than to kill other people -- they are not for hunting. do people use shotguns to hunt? .38 magnums? saturday-night specials?

i suppose what i'm saying is that guns are 100% unique, and they must be treated as such; and the mere presence of a gun is more likely to make someone kill.

so, yes, guns help people kill people, more than a rock or knife or car can help you kill someone.
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