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Old 01-22-2003, 08:19 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Frontline is a biased television program? Out of respect I did not attack the credibility of your source.
Dreadsox do you have a problem reading? I said 'potentially'. As every single other program on TV is.

As for your other accusations, most of them are conjecture and do nothing but illustrate your bias.

I never claimed that Ramsay Clark was lily white, and really all he did was round up the witnesses and present the findings.

I didnt go to any anti-us or Arab websites to get this info, I did a simple search on MSN and a whole host of American based websites provided me with the links.

Whether or not Ramsay Clarke has done wrong in the past is irrelevant, its a deflect and you know it.

Im glad you read the front page of the photographer's site. Im also glad that you emailed him, and of course you didn't need to email him to get the message from his site. THATS WHY I SAID READ IT ALL WITH AN OPEN MIND.

Bottom line is, the US DID use weapons of mass destruction during the Gulf War, and most likely did commit war crimes. And Im not the only one who thinks so.

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Old 01-22-2003, 09:56 AM   #17
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Gab...

I read it with an open mind. I responded with a source that had an opposing view to yours. You attack the source, and dismiss it saying the your source was more valid because it was a "respected US AG".

Because I have an opposing view to yours on this thread and others you have labeled me as being "brainwashed" and stated that I do not have "an open mind". Again, I read your links. I researched them and I did not attack their validity in my original response. I replied with a respected programs view on the same situation. You attacked my source.

I responded, including all of the sites that link to your article. They are extremely "BIASED" Anti-US Websites. I also looked into Ramsay Clark's background. He has associated with the Iranian's, Quadafi, and the Palestinian terrorists over the past twenty years. He has sided with them on every issue. He is clearly biased in his view.

As for my being open minded, I think my contact with the photographer speaks for itself. The pictures do not provide evidence of WMD nor do the demonstrate war crimes.

No-where in my post do I accuse you of hanging in those sites. I mearly point out that the article you hold as the truth, has got VERY shady people supporting it.
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Old 01-22-2003, 11:21 AM   #18
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Look "Dreadsox", I am man enough to come on here and use my real name so I would appreciate you not bastardizing it. You are not welcome to call me "Gab", "Gabe" or any other such derivative of my full name.

Second of all, if you call me stating that I will lean more heavily towards sworn statements of evidence in terms of reliability over a syndicated news program an 'attack', you are in serious need of help.

The only 'attack' launched was when you decided to quote Frontline's estimates as if they were gospel truth. By doing this you implied that the estimates contained linked document were pure bunk and not to be trusted.

If you had come out with another respected link of your own or some hard facts that would have been different. All you did was recall from memory a paraphrasing of what a news program said. That's supposed to be believable??

Again, I never said that I believed the entire report to the War Crimes Tribunal was 100% accurate, however they are sworn statements and they are made by people (more than just one) who were actually there.

Also, Im not intimating that you are accusing me of hanging out on anti-tow-the-bush-party-line sites. I could care a less what sites you think I visit. You DEFLECTED by attempting to prove some silly point that just because some extremist sites have links to this very public and in no way extremist document, that in some way invalidates the document. There's an inherent logical flaw in that assumption, whether the Commie Party of Oklahoma links to it or not is irrelevant.

And finally, your contact with the photographer proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Anyone who wise enough to read his Introduction site could see that he's not attempting to point fingers, and he STRESSED this on the CNN program that got me interested in his site in the first place. What it does prove is that you in all likelihood sought to somehow get him to distance himself from my using two somewhat related links in the same post.

Reload and come again, this is boring now.

Gabriel
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Old 01-22-2003, 11:40 AM   #19
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Man, chill out! I don't think he meant anything by callng you "Gab" as you seemed to infer. It is no different than people calling me "Bama" or people calling Kobeyashi "Kobe." I certainly don't think he meant to bastardize your real name.

Also, I see your diagnoses of people needing help ("you are in serious need of help") as a personal attack on those people simply because you disagree with their methods of processing information adn forming their opinions. Are you properly licensed to administer such cunseling on peopple you disagree with?

Good heavens; I don't know why you are so strongly on the offensive towards "dread," "speedy," "sting" (sans the "2") and others you disagree with; FREE YOUR MIND goes both ways.

~U2Alabama
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Old 01-22-2003, 11:45 AM   #20
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Old 01-22-2003, 05:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
Look "Dreadsox", I am man enough to come on here and use my real name so I would appreciate you not bastardizing it. You are not welcome to call me "Gab", "Gabe" or any other such derivative of my full name.
Sorry, meant nothing by it. It is obvious this has become personal with you. I am obviously less of a man for using a name I picked out......OK...let me whipe the tears from my eyes so I can continue. Laughing this hard makes it hard to type.


Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
Second of all, if you call me stating that I will lean more heavily towards sworn statements of evidence in terms of reliability over a syndicated news program an 'attack', you are in serious need of help.

The only 'attack' launched was when you decided to quote Frontline's estimates as if they were gospel truth. By doing this you implied that the estimates contained linked document were pure bunk and not to be trusted.
Your sworn statements come from an organization that is less than credible in my opinion as detailed above. I have reread what I typed. By pointing out that there was a sizeable gap between 400 and 10,000+. I also prefaced my statement that it was uncomfortable to think of 4-500 dying never mind 10,000+. It is a MAJOR gap in numbers. To be honest, given the history of Mr. Clark and his constant support of terrorists nations and leaders, I do trust the Frontline Stats.

Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox

If you had come out with another respected link of your own or some hard facts that would have been different. All you did was recall from memory a paraphrasing of what a news program said. That's supposed to be believable
Is this a "My link is better than yours complex?". After reading your links, I decided to do some reading on the topic myself because I had not read anything on the topic in a while. The links you were providing us, did not mix with what I recalled from that time period. Since I was on Active Military duty at the time and quite busy, I wanted to refresh my memory. I will put the link for you at the bottom.

Hey you were right about something. I did get the numbers wrong. FRONTLINE said a couple of hundred dead. That would be 200. Thanks for getting me to reread again.

Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
Again, I never said that I believed the entire report to the War Crimes Tribunal was 100% accurate, however they are sworn statements and they are made by people (more than just one) who were actually there.
I am sincerely curious as to what you believe to be false from the "War Crimes Tribunal"? I would like to know what innacuracies you believe to be in there.

Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox

Also, Im not intimating that you are accusing me of hanging out on anti-tow-the-bush-party-line sites. I could care a less what sites you think I visit. You DEFLECTED by attempting to prove some silly point that just because some extremist sites have links to this very public and in no way extremist document, that in some way invalidates the document. There's an inherent logical flaw in that assumption, whether the Commie Party of Oklahoma links to it or not is irrelevant.
To you it is a silly point. To me, when organizations that place my country's flag and stick a Swastika on it links to it I have the right to question how seriously valid it is. When there are no links from credible sites to it, I question the validity. When the man you said in your own words is "HIGHLTY RESPECTED" started in 1980 to associate with terrorists, writes a self proclaimed "War Crimes Tribunal" accusing my country of atrocities, I can question the validity of things.


Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox

And finally, your contact with the photographer proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Anyone who wise enough to read his Introduction site could see that he's not attempting to point fingers, and he STRESSED this on the CNN program that got me interested in his site in the first place. What it does prove is that you in all likelihood sought to somehow get him to distance himself from my using two somewhat related links in the same post.

The contact with the photographer proves many things. First of all, it 100% does not support your beliefs. Your statements that WMD's were used. It does not support your statements that they were non-combatants. The links are not related. It is a twisted attempt to slander my country.

Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox

Reload and come again, this is boring now.

Gabriel
Well, I am done. One thing as I pointed out earlier is that I am horrified by the pictures. I hate death and destruction. I hate the fact that 200-10,000 people died because of their leader Saddam Hussein. They were living people. That is the point the photographer wished to make.

MATT aka (MATTHEW, DREADSOX, DREAD)

oops...almost forgot here is the link to the FRONTLINE interviews.



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/
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Old 01-22-2003, 05:57 PM   #22
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Gabrielvox,

Curious - not knowing your stance on abortion, would a picture of an aborted fetus change your position?
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Old 01-22-2003, 08:17 PM   #23
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dread
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nb have it right in this thread.

gab is silly.

db9
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Old 01-22-2003, 09:44 PM   #24
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Good points, all.

Keep talking, Gabriel - I appreciate it, but I have too much to work at the very moment.

diamond: you should post one argument at least. Or do you have too much to work?
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Old 01-22-2003, 10:48 PM   #25
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Hiphop,

If I may call you "hiphop" without having my manhood challenged...hehe

How dare you tease us with a short post! I see in my email you posted. This is quite disappointing!

Good luck on the work.

Matthew Dominic Saracen AKA Dreadsox, Dread, Joker, Count, ......

Peace
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Old 01-23-2003, 01:08 AM   #26
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No, really, Matt, I am sorry, but I donīt have any time! Next week, ok?
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Old 01-23-2003, 07:12 AM   #27
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No, really, Matt, I am sorry, but I donīt have any time! Next week, ok?
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Old 01-23-2003, 07:23 AM   #28
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The sad part is, what some people fail to understand, is that I respect the anti-war movement. I respect their beliefs and that they have taken a stand. Some of you get it, understand this is my position. I want to make it clear that I too believe war is a horrible thing. Those pictures support that. Ihave been very steady in my belief that a case has not been made by the leader of my country for war. Until a CONVINCING ONE is made, I will not support the use of force.

As for this thread. While I may respect the beliefs you have Gabrielvox I do not respect the way you have chosen to present your case. The pages you have linked to are not valid historically in my mind. That is my opinion and I have formed it with much thought and reading over the past two or three days. You may not agree with it and that is fine with me, you are entitled to your opinion. When I see untruths posted, I have the right to counter that point.

AS I said in my first post, I do agree with you, war is horrific. Those pictures are horrific. If peace can work, I am with you 100%. After all of the reading I have done on Iraq's leader, I have my doubts.

Peace

Matt
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Old 01-23-2003, 11:17 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Gabrielvox,

Curious - not knowing your stance on abortion, would a picture of an aborted fetus change your position?
I'm not too sure what you are saying.

I am against abortion, it is murder.

I'm done on that.
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Old 01-23-2003, 11:22 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Ihave been very steady in my belief that a case has not been made by the leader of my country for war. Until a CONVINCING ONE is made, I will not support the use of force.

Matt
And on this we totally agree, even while we may have arrived there by different paths.

And it is this that we should be concentrating on right now, that a solid case has not been made, and thus this threat of military force, while seemingly necessary to get Saddam to act, is all the same very troubling.

Gabriel
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