Savages

[A_Wanderer]

Genital Mutilation 'On the Increase in Europe'

Young girls born in Europe to immigrant families from Africa are being subjected to ritual genital mutilation, and authorities are doing little to discourage it, a leading women’s rights activist warned.

Somalia-born supermodel and best-selling author Waris Dirie, who has campaigned to end the disfiguring practice she suffered at age five in her homeland, said yesterday that she estimates one in every three African families living in Europe is secretly carrying out the ritual on their daughters. No official figures exist.

The procedure – illegal in most European countries – is especially prevalent in Germany and the Netherlands, as well as in Austria, where an estimated 8,000 girls born into immigrant families have been affected, Dirie said.

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Anybody that performs, supports or advocates FGM is advocating savagery, period - hence the title.

 

[dandy]

this offends me to my very core, both as a woman and as a human being.

how do you educate people who believe in cutting up their little girls, risking their children's lives because they believe the vulva is the root of impurity and evil?

of all the atrocities committed on this planet, this may be the most distressing: maiming your own flesh and blood to deprive her of any hope of sexual pleasure.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It is around for the usual reasons; ingrained tribal cultural bullshit that should have gone the way of suttee but due to rise of nationalism managed to persist to this day. The real tragedy is that not enough action is taken to wipe it out completely.

 

[verte76]

This is widely practiced and accepted in the more conservative Islamic lands, including Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Sultana, the main character in the "Princess Trilogy" about a woman's life in Saudi Arabia, lucked out when a Western doctor told her father he didn't recommend this stuff thus she did not have to go through it. Unfortunately, she was unable to stop this in the family of one of her Egyptian servants when the girl's *mother* insisted she go through with it. They are trying to get this stuff stopped. It's bad news.

 

[CTU2fan]

There are many people throughout the world who would call male circumcision savage and barbaric...and I am absolutely NOT defending what's being done to these girls, only pointing out a double-standard.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I think that's pretty disgusting. How can this be a cultural thing?

 

[Liesje]

There are many people throughout the world who would call male circumcision savage and barbaric...and I am absolutely NOT defending what's being done to these girls, only pointing out a double-standard.

I've always found this a rather weak comparison. Circumcision does not interfere with a man's ability to enjoy intercourse, get an erecton, or anything a non-circumsized male can do for that matter. Castration would be a better comparison to FGM.

 

[Rinn]

Why is it always the women who have bits in them that are the root of all evil?? Isn't human habit to blame for all the shit that happens! As a female this really gets at me.

 

[verte76]

The "blame the woman" thing comes up again and again in Jean Sasson's Princess Trilogy that I mentioned. Every time something goes wrong in a relationship in that society, they blame the woman even if it's actually not her fault. It's almost surreal or something, and very shocking and sad.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I say the reason is that human beings have had a funny way of being mysogonist and barbaric creatures since the dawn of time and that these attributes carry through into practically every culture on the planet - one must then say that in the field of human rights and in this particular case womens rights some cultures and societies are much more humane than others.

 

[Dutch Partygirl]

This is an absolutely disgusting 'habit'. Coincidentally I read an article about it in a Dutch newspaper yesterday... I think it's completely degrading and it ruins women's lives. Nothing human about it!

 

[pax]

How on Earth are we going to achieve a world in which human rights are truly *human* rights when this kind of thing goes on?

Unfortunately, because it's often claimed to be linked to religion, it's going to be incredibly hard to stamp out globally. Still, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

 

[elfyx]

I've always found this a rather weak comparison. Circumcision does not interfere with a man's ability to enjoy intercourse, get an erecton, or anything a non-circumsized male can do for that matter. Castration would be a better comparison to FGM.

Unfortunately, it is not weak at all. Male circumcision is another unhealthy, barbaric practice. A complete double standard. And, technically speaking, the male foreskin is analogous to the female clitoris.

If you educate yourself, it absolutely does interfere with a man's ability to enjoy intercourse. Something like 80 percent of all sexual nerve endings on the male penis is located on the foreskin. And, yes it also can interfere with a man's ability to get an erection. A circumcised penis is not a correct erection, as the skin is pulled far too bad to the base.

The facts go on and on. It's absolutely barbaric- as is this female version.

 

[dandy]

ah, we've had this debate here before...

i'm not for chopping up anyone's genitalia, be it male or female. both practices are at best pointless disfigurement of our perfectly assembled sexual organs, and at worst a revealing commentary on cultural misconceptions and hangups about sex.

that being said, i can't see female genital mutilation as being the female equivalent of circumcision. i am completely against circumcision, but (repeating what liv said) circumcision leaves the penis relatively intact and fully functional (with some scarring and loss of sensation, no debate). most (but not all) circumicisions are carried out in relatively hygenic conditions, and while there is the risk of permanent loss of the penis, it's a rare occurrence. not that these considerations make it acceptable, because it's not.

female genital mutilation is banned in most countries, and is often performed in less than sterile conditions, sometimes by whatever means available, be it rusty razors or shards of glass. the girls are almost never anaesthetized or given pain medication, and literally *everything* is removed. this is not surgical removal of the clitoris--it's the scraping away of all of the skin, leaving only a tiny hole for blood and urine to pass through. often the girls are left with severe infections, extremely painful menstruation, not to mention agonizing pain when they have sex. how these women survive childbirth baffles me. this is not loss of sexual sensation, it's torture.

 

[Liesje]

technically speaking, the male foreskin is analogous to the female clitoris.

No, sorry, I don't care what medical terms are out there, but it's just not.

I don't think I know a single circumsized guy that's ever uttered one single complaint about not being able to have a full erection or orgasm b/c of circumcision. In my experience, they're all horny as hell and working just fine! I alos asked my bf about this last time this discussion came up and ask him if he wished he was never circumcized and he just gave me a funny look like "yeah right!"

FGM leaves a women with NO way to achieve ANY sexual pleasure.

 

[BAW]

The male foreskin is not analogous to the female clitoris. It is analgous to the hood that covers the clitoris. A better comparison would be the clitoris to the glans of the penis, which is where most men are the most sensitive.

Male circumcision is over in a matter of seconds and done when the male is a few days old. No doubt it is painful and I think its a pretty unnecessary practice but you can't compare this to a 9 year old female being held down and having her labia and clitoris sliced away with a dirty shard of glass and stitched up with no pain relief.

When males start having their glans removed and their penis' stitched up save for a small hole for urination, then I would compare it female genital mutilation aka female circumcision.

 

[elfyx]

FGM is a pretty messed up practice, no doubt. Its horrifying, and I can't think about it too long without getting physically ill. This is just all so sad.

 

[BAW]

FGM is a pretty messed up practice, no doubt. Its horrifying, and I can't think about it too long without getting physically ill. This is just all so sad.

Now that is something we can agree on

 

[yimou]

Recently it has once again come up to debate in my home country. And everytime the goverment tries hard to go against it, and try to prevent the girls being send abroad on these surposed " holidays " in their homecountries, as the parents call it. Then its being blocked and called a bug hunt and rascisme by these groups of people who practice this. And ofcourse followed by utter denial that it ever accurs.
It is frustrating, because ever sane person should be against this. But everytime the topic is up, its being drowned in politics, while the girls human rights are being neglected..

I think its about damn time, that the goverments ended this thing. This should not happen AT ALL,, Sometimes people only see a child, and not a PERSON. During this to a child is not part of the parental obligations

 

[verte76]

How on Earth are we going to achieve a world in which human rights are truly *human* rights when this kind of thing goes on?

Unfortunately, because it's often claimed to be linked to religion, it's going to be incredibly hard to stamp out globally. Still, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

That's right, they'll say it's OK because it is supposedly an Islamic practice. It's sickening to think about this sort of thing going on. Yuck.

 

[nbcrusader]

How on Earth are we going to achieve a world in which human rights are truly *human* rights when this kind of thing goes on?

Unfortunately, because it's often claimed to be linked to religion, it's going to be incredibly hard to stamp out globally. Still, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

I find FGM as repugnant as the rest of you and the practitioners of such behavior should be punished.


Just for the sake of discussion, where do we draw the line between respecting the cultural practices of others and banning some practices? When discussing issues of morality, we often hear the stalemate argument of "who gets to decide?" On what principle do we get do approve/ban these cultural practices?

 

[Liesje]

On what principle do we get do approve/ban these cultural practices?

When the cultural practices permanently alter or destroy an inherent part of our humanity, especially those done to unknowing/unwilling minors. FGM destroys female sexuality.

Sure, you could argue that male circumcision, body piercings, and plastic surgery might also fall into this category....

 

[dandy]

great question, nbc, and not an easy one to answer.

not that our system of law is perfect or infallible, but the law reflects basic guidelines of what types of behaviour are unacceptable to society as a whole. generally, we are free to go about our lives as we wish, so long as we don't impinge on the rights and freedoms of others. perhaps a similar standard would be useful in terms of cultural practices...? causing bodily harm to another person, particularly the brutal mysogynist act of FGM, shouldn't be condoned in any context.

the other issue i see is the question of informed consent. FGM would be seen in an entirely different light if women (not girls) were voluntarily going to have this procedure done in a sanitary environment (it wouldn't change the underlying mysogyny that wants to strip women of their sexuality, however). what makes FGM so horrific is that it's done to girls before they have a chance to understand their bodies, the concept of sexuality. an adult choosing to do something to his/her own body is an individual choice, forcibly maiming another human being is violence that impacts the whole of society.