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Old 11-21-2009, 01:46 PM   #616
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and Our Sarah knows this, and works this.

I know. And it sets everyone back every time she does it.
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:06 PM   #617
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As long as women's looks are important in politics, then there's a sexist double-standard.
Like it or not, they are important in all walks of life. We can either cry foul or be empowered by it.
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:14 PM   #618
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I think that when women use their looks as weapon against men, or as any other kind of tool to get what they want, it puts them in a secondary position. If we want to really be equals, then we need to be equals. It says that we can't get what we need and deserve, except when men think we're pretty enough for it. What happens to the ones who aren't pretty enough?
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:19 PM   #619
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It's sexist as hell, BVS. Stop arguing just for the sake of arguing. You don't so anybody any good doing that.
Whoah, calm down. I am not arguing just for the sake of arguing.

First I was trying to find out why Newsweek getting the photo from a third party source had anything to do with it, and secondly I'm still not convinced it's sexist.

Was it sexist when it was the cover of Runner's World or whatever magazine it was?
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:23 PM   #620
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It says that we can't get what we need and deserve, except when men think we're pretty enough for it.
Or it says we can get what we want, need and deserve when we think we're pretty enough for it. See the difference?

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What happens to the ones who aren't pretty enough?
The same thing that happens to men who aren't good looking enough. Matters for them too.
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:31 PM   #621
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I think that when women use their looks as weapon against men, or as any other kind of tool to get what they want, it puts them in a secondary position. If we want to really be equals, then we need to be equals. It says that we can't get what we need and deserve, except when men think we're pretty enough for it. What happens to the ones who aren't pretty enough?
I would agree with most of that. In my view though, that's woman harming each other, more than women being harmed by men or by society. The fact is, men (and other women) respond to attractive women, and to be honest, sometimes an attractive person takes that approach because it's the shortest and easiest route to achieving a goal. So unless we can get every attractive person (men do it, too) to stop utilizing their attractiveness to further goals, it's just going to be unfair to average or unattractive people. Since that's not likely to happen anytime soon, we should probably find another way of dealing with it, or at least conceptualizing it.

I think in Palin's case, she clearly does use her attractiveness to get ahead, but so do a lot of other people, the phenomenon is nothing new. What irks me about her though is the whole victimization thing she does when her method fails, or people call her on it. If she's going to use it, as AliEnvy alluded to, she should at least own it.
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:57 PM   #622
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I realize I'm speaking in idealistic terms, but I really do think that when anyone uses looks to get ahead, it lessens his or her true worth and equality.

I like eye candy as much as the next girl, but I'm certainly not going to base any important decisions on the looks of the provider/politician/anyone else.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:01 PM   #623
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Or it says we can get what we want, need and deserve when we think we're pretty enough for it. See the difference?
Yes, but I still disagree with the concept. Why do I need to be pretty to have equal access to rights? Why not base what I get on my worth as a human? Why do I need to rely on someone else's perception of beauty to be worthwhile? Isn't that exact attitude killing young women and (more young men) when they start starving themselves to achieve someone else's ideals of beauty? Isn't that the climate that has created the fear of aging that's going on now?



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The same thing that happens to men who aren't good looking enough. Matters for them too.
That doesn't make it any more acceptable. The right to fully function in a society should not rely on how you look.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:31 PM   #624
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Why do I need to be pretty to have equal access to rights? Why not base what I get on my worth as a human?
Why are you framing the concept on rights and worth?

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Why do I need to rely on someone else's perception of beauty to be worthwhile?
By doing that, you give away your power, which is the opposite of what I stated and the problem that creates starving young girls.

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The right to fully function in a society should not rely on how you look.
Nor does it. Don't get me wrong, I believe in substance over style, but I also don't see it as an either/or deal and fully recognize that style matters.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:13 PM   #625
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Why are you framing the concept on rights and worth?

Because that's what we were talking about. What are you talking about?
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:29 PM   #626
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I'm talking about empowerment.

Attractive people have easier access to various opportunities but not necessarily more rights as humans.

And attractive can mean many things and take many forms.
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Old 11-21-2009, 05:05 PM   #627
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I'm talking about empowerment.
Empowerment for what then, if not rights and the access to those rights.

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Attractive people have easier access to various opportunities but not necessarily more rights as humans.
I see these as nearly the same.

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And attractive can mean many things and take many forms.
We were talking about beauty, but you can change the discussion if you like.

I still prefer my "empowerment" to be based on my merit, not on someone else's perception of my "attractiveness," whatever that may mean.
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Old 11-21-2009, 06:23 PM   #628
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The Mudflats

Scroll to the bottom of the page for chapter 1. Although the next entry she makes, chapter 1 will probably be bumped to the previous page.


yes! i was looking at it the other day!

genius.
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:21 PM   #629
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Empowerment for what then, if not rights and the access to those rights.
Successful attainment of whatever it is one wants, needs and deserves which I think extends beyond the notion of rights.

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We were talking about beauty, but you can change the discussion if you like.
And I used attractive as a synonym for beauty so not sure why you think I tried to change the discussion. Unless of course you don't think beauty is in the eye of the beholder and just want to be combative about it.

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I still prefer my "empowerment" to be based on my merit, not on someone else's perception of my "attractiveness," whatever that may mean.
Successful people play to their strengths to get what they want. Whatever those strengths may be.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:02 PM   #630
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Successful people play to their strengths to get what they want. Whatever those strengths may be.

Well, if you're willing to get ahead because of your looks, or style, or whatever, have at it. I still prefer merit.

Beauty, attractiveness, style all fade or go out of fashion. Merit doesn't diminish with age or change according to fads. Women will be equal competitors with men when we don't rely on men's weakness for attractiveness.
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