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Old 07-11-2009, 11:27 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
The ethics complaints against Palin haven't, in fact, gone very far; to date all but 2 have been dismissed as being without merit before making it to the hearing stage.

And how old are these two?
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Old 07-11-2009, 11:30 PM   #182
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I don't think Rush represents anything outside of mainstream conservatism.
If I were to believe that, then I would be even more scared of the mainstream conservative movement then I already am... I just don't buy it. If it's true, you guys are screwed.
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Old 07-11-2009, 11:30 PM   #183
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I didn't say that I believe no one is out to "shoot her down" I'm sure there are... But if I'm not mistaken some of these stem from before she was even the VP canidate, and if they have gone this far there is usually enough gray area that she hasn't been able to get dismissed, that is usually a bad sign for these types of lawsuits.
I'd hate to be wrongfully tried of a crime I didn't commit, and have you on the jury.

Evidence apparently doesn't apply to you.
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Old 07-11-2009, 11:32 PM   #184
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If I were to believe that, then I would be even more scared of the mainstream conservative movement then I already am... I just don't buy it. If it's true, you guys are screwed.
Umm...

Rev. Wright was extreme.
Bill Ayers was extreme.
Frank Marshall Davis was extreme.
Saul Alinsky was extreme.

That didn't stop The One from duping America.
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Old 07-11-2009, 11:34 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Macfistowannabe View Post
I'd hate to be wrongfully tried of a crime I didn't commit, and have you on the jury.

Evidence apparently doesn't apply to you.
I didn't say she was guilty. I have no thoughts on if she is guilty or not. Read my post again.
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Old 07-11-2009, 11:42 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Macfistowannabe View Post
Umm...

Rev. Wright was extreme.
Bill Ayers was extreme.
Frank Marshall Davis was extreme.
Saul Alinsky was extreme.

That didn't stop The One from duping America.
I don't think Wright was as extreme as people make him out to be. NO, I personally do not like him. BUT we heard clips from what one maybe two sermons?

The connection to Bill Ayers was exaggerated, even Ayers himself stated in an interview after the election that he hasn't spent that much time with Obama.

I think the Davis connection is often exaggerated as well.

And tell me again the REAL connection with Alinsky. Oscar has tried and failed many many times using this connection.
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Old 07-11-2009, 11:59 PM   #187
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And how old are these two?
'Troopergate' (the investigation ran from July-October 2008), and the case involving use of state funds for her children's travel costs when some of them accompanied her on certain trips (filed October 2008, settled February 2009). Those were the two that weren't dismissed.

There's still one case in the initial investigation stage, if that's what you're really asking--that was filed in late April (2009), and charges that the 'Fund Trust' through which online donors can contribute to Palin's legal funds is itself a misuse of her office. It's possible that other complaints currently in the initial investigation stage do exist (i.e., merit not yet determined), but since Alaska law imposes no consequences for the complainant's going public during that stage--and I'm pretty sure all the earlier complainants did--it doesn't seem very likely.

As I said earlier, I have to assume that most if not all of Palin's personal legal expenses stem specifically from 'Troopergate' and the child-travel case. Because normally the state would cover initial investigation costs and there's no hearings or much of anything like that for a lawyer to do at that stage, since merit has yet to be determined.
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Old 07-12-2009, 12:05 AM   #188
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I don't think Wright was as extreme as people make him out to be. NO, I personally do not like him. BUT we heard clips from what one maybe two sermons?
He used the pulpit to turn "worshippers" against the government.

"Today is December 7th, the day that this government killed over 80,000 Japanese civilians at Hiroshima in 1941, 2 days before killing an additional 64,000 Japanese civilians at Nagasaki by dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people."
-- Jeremiah Wright, Dec 7, 2008

Does this fool understand that had we not done that, we would be speaking German?

The man thrives on anti-American hatred. His views on race are incurable, and I don't care which century we're talking about.

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"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community."
It's not a church about God, it's a church about race. The man was over his heels for Louis Farakkahn. If you don't think Farakkahn is extreme, I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
The connection to Bill Ayers was exaggerated, even Ayers himself stated in an interview after the election that he hasn't spent that much time with Obama.
Nothing was exaggerated about Ayers. Obama kicked off his Illinois State Senate campaign at his home. They sat on philanthropic boards together.

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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I think the Davis connection is often exaggerated as well.
I think it's often ignored.

The man was also a pedophile.

Quote:
“I could not then truthfully deny that this book, which came out in 1968 as a Greenleaf Classic, was mine.” In the introduction to Sex Rebel, Mr Davis (writing as Greene) explains that although he has “changed names and identities…all incidents I have described have been taken from actual experiences”.

He stated that “under certain circumstances I am bisexual” and that he was “ a voyeur and an exhibitionist” who was “occasionally mildly interested in sado-masochism”, adding: “I have often wished I had two penises to enjoy simultaneously the double – but different – sensations of oral and genital copulation.”

The book, which closely tracks Mr Davis’s life in Chicago and Hawaii and the fact that his first wife was black and his second white, describes in lurid detail a series of shockingly sordid sexual encounters, often involving group sex.

One chapter concerns the seduction by Mr Davis and his first wife of a 13-year-old girl called Anne. Mr Davis wrote that it was the girl who had suggested he had sex with her. “I’m not one to go in for Lolitas. Usually I’d rather not bed a babe under 20.

“But there are exceptions. I didn’t want to disappoint the trusting child. At her still-impressionistic age, a rejection might be traumatic, could even cripple her sexually for life.”

He then described how he and his wife would have sex with the girl. “Anne came up many times the next several weeks, her aunt thinking she was in good hands. Actually she was.

“She obtained a course in practical sex from experienced and considerate practitioners rather than from ignorant insensitive neophytes….I think we did her a favour, although the pleasure was mutual.”

On other occasions, Mr Davis would cruise in Hawaii parks looking for couples or female tourists to have sex with. He derived sexual gratification from bondage, simulated rape and being flogged and urinated on.
Sickening. I don't care who you are.

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And tell me again the REAL connection with Alinsky. Oscar has tried and failed many many times using this connection.
Saul Alinsky was a transformational Marxist and the godfather of "community organizing." His work is heavily influenced by Antonio Gramsci, an Italian Communist philosopher. He preached that you have to "march through the institutions", rather than confront the West to achieve a revolution. You don't need a Communist Party. What you do is radicalize the dominant left powerhouse.

In the Boston Globe, his son wrote this letter to the editor:

"ALL THE elements were present: the individual stories told by real people of their situations and hardships, the packed-to-the rafters crowd, the crowd's chanting of key phrases and names, the action on the spot of texting and phoning to show instant support and commitment to jump into the political battle, the rallying selections of music, the setting of the agenda by the power people. The Democratic National Convention had all the elements of the perfectly organized event, Saul Alinsky style.

"Barack Obama's training in Chicago by the great community organizers is showing its effectiveness. It is an amazingly powerful format, and the method of my late father always works to get the message out and get the supporters on board. When executed meticulously and thoughtfully, it is a powerful strategy for initiating change and making it really happen. Obama learned his lesson well.

"I am proud to see that my father's model for organizing is being applied successfully beyond local community organizing to affect the Democratic campaign in 2008. It is a fine tribute to Saul Alinsky as we approach his 100th birthday."

Alinsky also dedicated Rules for Radicals to Lucifer.
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Old 07-12-2009, 12:34 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Macfistowannabe View Post
He used the pulpit to turn "worshippers" against the government.
A lot of religion and government collide. Christian conservative social movement is a prime example. It's hard for the two to coincide sometimes, because governments have to do things that go against the teachings of religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfistowannabe View Post
Nothing was exaggerated about Ayers. Obama kicked off his Illinois State Senate campaign at his home. They sat on philanthropic boards together.
Yes, I've been on boards with people I don't really know all that well either, I've even had events at their house. We had the same goals through that paticular board it doesn't mean we shared every common belief.

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Originally Posted by Macfistowannabe View Post
I think it's often ignored.
OMG, do you think that rubbed off on Obama?!

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Saul Alinsky was a transformational Marxist and the godfather of "community organizing."
This one just cracks me up, and it shows me the disinterest in real logical debate that conservatives currently exhibit these days.

So because Obama was a community organizer that means he had a direct connection to Alinsky? I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Oscar, show me one, just one tactic from "Rules for Radicals" that the conservatives do not use. He couldn't do it, can you?
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Old 07-12-2009, 12:35 AM   #190
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Here is a list of all but the most recent ethics complaints (there was a new one filed July 6th, after this article was published):

Ethics complaints filed against Palin: Gov. Sarah Palin | adn.com


Here is the new complaint, having to do with her collecting a per diem, while choosing to live in her own home rather than the governor's mansion in Juneau. A portion of the complaint, and a link to the full text and accompanying documents:

Quote:
Governor Sarah Palin has been charging and pocketing per diem to live in her home and has used the process for a personal gain since being elected. The State of Alaska provides housing in Juneau for the Governor. If she chooses not to live there, Alaskans should not have to pay for it. I am requesting that you and the Personnel Board direct Governor Sarah Palin to reimburse the State of Alaska all per diem funds, plus interest, and a fine that are related to charges while staying in her Wasilla residence.
http://www.themudflats.net/wp-conten...int-7-6-09.pdf

http://www.themudflats.net/wp-conten...a-may-2009.pdf


Interesting info about the cost to the state of defending the complaints:

The Mudflats � Palin’s Milllllions of Dollars!

Quote:
"David Murrow, a spokesperson for the Governor, said in an interview that much of this money was budgeted to the lawyers in advance and would have gone to them anyway, even if state lawyers hadn’t been defending against these ethics complaints.

In response to our questions, the Governor’s office provided us with a detailed breakdown of the millions Palin has claimed has gone to defending against ethics complaints. It does list roughly $1.9 million in expenditures.

But Murrow, the spokesperson, acknowledged to our reporter, Amanda Erickson, that this total was arrived at by adding up attorney hours spent on fending off complaints — based on the fixed salaries of lawyers in the governor’s office and the Department of Law. The money would have gone to the lawyers no matter what they were doing. The complaints are “just distracting them from other duties,” Murrow said."

In other words, while these lawyers might have been free to do other legal work for the state, the ethics complaints have apparently not had the real world impact Palin has claimed, and didn’t drain money away from cops, teachers, roads and other things.

...

And, of course, the Personnel Board’s members are paid per diem. And all the records requests and email requests all come with exorbitant price tags, paid for by those who request to see them. That $2 million is looking smaller all the time.

For those who want some additional number crunchery, do go visit Mel Green’s posts on the topic. The first one (HERE) talks about the breakdown of the dollars spent on ethics complaints, but was written before Palin’s backtracking explanation of where the “$2 million” number came from. I’ve talked about the ethics complaint breakdown too, but I didn’t have a snazzy pie chart like this:





I’m a sucker for a pie chart, and what this one says is that between the Troopergate probe that she herself initiated, the other Troopergate probe that found her guilty of ethics violations, the investigation that resulted in reimbursing the state for her children’s travel expenses, and the one that suggested ethics training for a top member of the administration… the biggest chunk of that pie is the governor’s doing and belongs right on the governor’s plate.
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Old 07-12-2009, 12:44 AM   #191
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Thanks VP
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Old 07-12-2009, 12:49 AM   #192
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Here is the new complaint, having to do with her collecting a per diem, while choosing to live in her own home rather than the governor's mansion in Juneau.
Thanks for the correction. I remembered reading last weekend that a man who'd filed an earlier complaint was talking about filing another one involving her commuting expenses, but I hadn't seen where he'd gone ahead and done it. (It's illegal for him to be talking about it at this stage, BTW, but since Alaskan law has the weird quirk of imposing no consequences for doing so, complainants there generally do.)
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Old 07-12-2009, 01:07 AM   #193
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As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I do agree that many of the complaints fall under the frivolous category, but then others do not. It's funny to me that the nifty switcheroo she did with the dual Troopergate investigative boards rarely gets mentioned by the media, and yet now that's a major contributor to the "financial hardship" she's caused the state, and as the blogger mentioned, that was much of her own doing. But I digress...

I think you have to look at it in terms of the political climate in Alaska to begin with, long before she ever came onto the scene. It sounds to me as if the state was rife with political corruption (the most recent example being former senator Ted Stevens), and that a lot of citizens were sick of it. She burst on to the scene promising something different, and so she was probably under increased scrutiny from Alaskans just by virtue of that. Reading the comments of many Alaskans, I've never gotten the sense that they were willing her to fail from the start, but perhaps due to her promises of transparency and promising to be the opposite of "business as usual," they held her to her word, and were disappointed when it became clear she was like virtually every other politician. And, it did give her political opposites a lot of fodder to draw on - people love to expose hypocrisy.

I dunno, just tossing out ideas.

Yolland, it's very difficult to keep track of all of it.

You're welcome, BVS.
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Old 07-12-2009, 01:31 AM   #194
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And actually, after looking up that commuting expenses complaint, I see there was also another new complaint filed last week, alleging that she was paid for one or more media interviews at some point.

I wasn't correcting BVS to suggest that all the other complaints have been 'frivolous' necessarily--although, as an 'ordinary citizen' (meaning, frankly, one who doesn't really know that much about my own state's ethics code), I'd have to say I don't feel particularly confident determining what's 'frivolous' and what isn't in complaints like these. In most states, the laws forbidding complainants from going public during the initial investigation stage actually have teeth in them--and since most complaints in most states DO wind up getting dismissed, we therefore never hear about them. As a result, most of us really haven't the foggiest idea what a 'normal' number of complaints per term might look like. Presumably considerably lower than this, but I simply wouldn't know.

Agreed on the irony of the Troopergate expenses...if it's almost two-thirds of the state's costs, then I'd guess it's a similar proportion of her own costs as well.
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Old 07-12-2009, 02:16 AM   #195
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