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Old 11-08-2007, 08:20 AM   #61
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I AM pro-life, but I don't believe that my personal opinions and religious convictions have anything to do with any other person, on a political level. I support my right to chose to be pro-life
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:49 PM   #62
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
It must be very easy to want to force a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy when one isn't pregnant themselves.
It must be very easy to allow the taking of a life as long as you're not the one whose life is being taken away.

To use your simplistic logic back.
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Old 11-08-2007, 03:50 PM   #63
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^and the above post really gets to the heart of the debate and why people mostly talk past each other on this issue.

however, i can't help but think that i'd feel this issue much more viscerally if i were in possession of a womb. while we can't forget what's inside a womb, we can't treat the possessor of said womb as nothing more than an incubator.
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Old 11-08-2007, 11:07 PM   #64
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Originally posted by Irvine511
^and the above post really gets to the heart of the debate and why people mostly talk past each other on this issue.
My post was simply to point out exactly that. BrownEyedBoy made the statement; I called it out.

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however, i can't help but think that i'd feel this issue much more viscerally if i were in possession of a womb.
So human life is defined on a subjective basis only by those with wombs? Human history has been full of dictators, rulers, and murderers whose definition of life did not include those they annihilated; were their definitions legitimate?
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Old 11-08-2007, 11:40 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
[B]



So human life is defined on a subjective basis only by those with wombs? Human history has been full of dictators, rulers, and murderers whose definition of life did not include those they annihilated; were their definitions legitimate?
I think you miss the point. I think there are two things happening here.

One being that "life" is defined much differently in the womb. You can't get scientist, ministers, politicians, women or men to uniformly define life in a womb. So yes there is some subjectivity.

Secondly, you can define life outside the womb. We are all living breathing humans at this time. Yet war, death penalty, cutting off funds to the poor, cutting off education, cutting off health care, ignoring, etc is completely fine with some people, in fact it's part of their soap box.
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:35 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

"life" is defined much differently in the womb. You can't get scientist, ministers, politicians, women or men to uniformly define life in a womb. So yes there is some subjectivity.
So when we can't agree whether someone is alive, the automatic decision is to allow her or him to be murdered?
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:55 AM   #67
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Originally posted by nathan1977


So when we can't agree whether someone is alive, the automatic decision is to allow her or him to be murdered?


see, this is the black and white thinking that you aptly pointed out in BEB's post.

it could be argued -- the automatic decision is to allow her to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy?

this is why i don't like abortion threads, i can think of fewer greyer issues than this. i understand why it's a big deal, and i really do understand the anti-choice/pro-life position and i find parts of it very difficult to argue with. there does seem to me to be a termination of what must be considered "life."

however, is this murder as you (dramatically) belive? is a 9 week fetus a person? are the social consequences of outlawing abortion going to result in more suffering and social ills than it's continued legalization?

i think i could argue that a fetus is not a person, that abortion is not murder, yet each abortion is a tragedy that we can all wish never happened.

ultimately, i think we're all missing the point. the point should be to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies to zero. and how do we do that? health education and free birth control.

(and gay sex )
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Old 11-09-2007, 06:19 AM   #68
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I'm wondering if anyone's seen "Lake Of Fire", the documentary by Tony Kaye that was 16 years in the making and from all reviews gives both sides of the abortion debate (ranging from rational to deranged) a chance to explain their views.
I couldn't imagine seeing it in a theatre (it is very long and apparently very graphic at times) but I will watch it when it comes to DVD.
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Old 11-09-2007, 01:12 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


So when we can't agree whether someone is alive, the automatic decision is to allow her or him to be murdered?
Once again, you missed the point by miles...
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