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Old 11-06-2007, 02:33 PM   #46
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
Ahhh.. this is the argument that really drives me nuts.

Illegal bungie cord jumping off of bridges will happen no matter what too. There needs to be a safe way for that as well.


It's already been addressed that your argument holds no merit, so I will not say anything more than they did.

The bottom line is that this issue will never go away. Why? Because it will always be an opinion as to when life starts. Unlike some other major issues, both sides have merit in this case, and I can respect anyone on each side, as long as they aren't trying to press religion into law.

I think both sides (in general) need to respect the other a little more. I think all pro-lifers need to respect the fact that abortion isn't an easy decision, and that those getting abortions aren't trying to "kill babies." And I think pro-choicers need to respect that fact that pro-lifers truly want the best for each and every possible child.

Although, I think anyone who is pro-life and anti-gay rights is contradicting themselves. If you want parents to give children to adoption instead of aborting, then why would you prevent marriages between people that in many cases would be looking to adopt?
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:43 PM   #47
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I think another point to make about both sides of the issue is that we should both be working to reduce the amount of abortions. I think both sides can agree on this and like Jim Wallis has said in "God's Politics," let's first work on this area. I think it would allow both sides to better see where the other is coming from, too.
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:46 PM   #48
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
For example, here in Europe you are only allowed to abort in the first trimester for non-medical reasons.
After that, it is only allowed for legal reasons.
Furthermore, before you actually abort there is a lot of mandatory counselling where the doctor informs you about potential consequences, alternatives, speaking to the father and so on. And for most women to abort is a serious psychological burden and they don't do it because they feel like it.
I would support our adopting that approach here--legal and readily available essentially without restrictions through the first trimester, afterwards only for reasons of medical necessity, as determined by a doctor.
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:06 PM   #49
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Originally posted by coemgen

So, you’re saying it’s not a decision? She may not go in that day, but it’s a decision she’s making.

No, not at all. I just say it's not a spontaneous decision like "Today I drink tea instead of coffee." It's generally a decision that either comes after a lot of time thinking and rethinking, or out of a state of desperation knowing one is not capable taking the responsiblity that comes with it, or sadly, because they weren't as careful with contraception as they ought to be.
And, as I pointed out, before the actual abortion is undertaking, a lot of counselling is involved.
I don't see why you say I'm implying there is no decision made.



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This is great. I’m glad to hear a woman (and the father, I’m assuming) go through these steps before making the decision. However, you were equating the loss of life in a car accident to that of abortion, and by sharing this you’re only further illustrating my point: an accident and a conscious decision are two different things.
The car accident example was rather employed because I thought the "Don't abort, you never know what this child would turn out to be, or do.", is dangerous as people might be starting to blame people for having aborted the potential "Mr/Ms AIDS Cure", saying that the car driver also could be the one who killed that potential child.
It was aimed at the "What might this child once become" argument, and rather indirectly at the abortion.

And, yes, abortion certainly is a conscious decision. If the doctor sees it's not whe mustn't perform the abortion.

Quote:
I actually agree with you on the first part of this, and I can honestly say I respect the position of keeping abortion legal, but still being against it morally. I see where people are coming from with this perspective, I still disagree with it though. That said, I also don’t think the case against abortion should be made using religion either. I think it can be made without it. First, like I’ve mentioned before, if done 21 days after conception, there’s a beating heart. If you stop a beating heart outside of the womb, it’s murder. Heck, if a pregnant lady is murdered it’s considered two murders. Why the double standard?
Also, I’ve mentioned in other debates on this topic that my wife had an abortion before we met. She got pregnant and felt pressured into it and regrets it terribly. She’s undergone counseling for it and has had to overcome a lot of issues with it. She’s healing, but it’s been a long, difficult road. I’ve heard this from many, many other women. It’s not just a medical procedure being done. It’s not like a day-surgery kind of thing. It’s traumatic for many women. There’s a built-in bond that’s being broken and they often don’t know how hard it’s going to be to recover from breaking that bond — and this includes women who don’t have the religious views of abortion. My wife now shares her story openly to young women at our church and others so they can make a more informed decision should they find themselves in that situation.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all about taking abortion lightly. I'm not for it if not necessary at all and think every alternative is better (except for medical reasons) than performing an abortion, especially preventing the pregnancy.

I would strictly oppose anyone who said, "Well, if it happens we will just go abort", of course.
But still I think it is very important for many reasons to keep it legal, and am strongly supporting the way it's done in Europe.

I would have to ask some expert in German/European law, because I don't know if it would be considered double-murder here either.
Nevertheless, abortion and murder are too different things and I don't think it's a double-standard. Again, I would encourage every person to consider every alternative there is over abortion.

I couldn't figure out how to word it properly, but in my post I pointed out that for most women it's not an easy decision beforehand, and is very often a traumatizing event for her, so if it didn't come across, I'm certainly aware of that and with you on that part.



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I agree with this except for the debatable part on the translation and interpretations. : )
I took that from the Bible discussions regarding homosexuality and abortion in other threads, where different translations were quoted time and time again (do you say so?) about certain parts of the Bible, and the interpretations of those sometimes were as different as chalk and cheese (German: as day and night ).

And having learned two different languages, there's one thing I've learned for sure: translating texts into another language, you will definitely have variations in those texts, and both would be technically right.


Quote:
Yes, you’re right – we can’t predict what a child might be capable of once born. That wasn’t my point. My point was just the thought that we may miss out on some really cool people who could add something special to life. It was a general statement using one illustration to make the point. That’s it. That said, I still think the most normal of lives, or most basic of lives, is valuable enough not to abort.
Of course, no one wants to deny a child to experience what life is, be it a basic life, or an outstanding one.
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:39 PM   #50
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Vincent, it sounds like we just misunderstood each other on the car accident scenario. I see where you’re coming from. The argument I was making could be made without the “potential person with a cure for AIDS” argument. No big deal now.

Also, I can tell you don’t take abortion lightly and I respect that. Even though we may disagree on some points, I can still see and respect where you’re coming from. Thanks for the discussion.

(P.S. I hope to get to Berlin one day. I’ve been to Köln. The cathedral there is impressive in many ways.)
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:58 PM   #51
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Originally posted by coemgen
I think another point to make about both sides of the issue is that we should both be working to reduce the amount of abortions.
I agree, there was a thread on this not too far back, something that Hilary had stated.

I think the problem is a lot of the right won't budge. I've seen so many people, even in here who say they would rather not vote then to vote for someone who is pro-choice, even if every other issue was in line with their views.

I think a majority of the left will agree that the fewer abortions the better. The left will always support education. This is something I don't think a lot of the right understand, I don't think they understand that the left wants the fewest possible.
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:10 PM   #52
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Obama's said similar things, too. It just makes sense. All the bickering about the two polar extremes just prolongs the fact that people aren't being served here, only political egos are. Meanwhile, there's real shades of pain being experienced by people across this country in various situations surrounding this issue.
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:12 PM   #53
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I agree, there was a thread on this not too far back, something that Hilary had stated.

I think the problem is a lot of the right won't budge. I've seen so many people, even in here who say they would rather not vote then to vote for someone who is pro-choice, even if every other issue was in line with their views.

I think a majority of the left will agree that the fewer abortions the better. The left will always support education. This is something I don't think a lot of the right understand, I don't think they understand that the left wants the fewest possible.
More abortions, fewer students, lower costs - duh'
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:13 PM   #54
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I agree, there was a thread on this not too far back, something that Hilary had stated.

I think the problem is a lot of the right won't budge. I've seen so many people, even in here who say they would rather not vote then to vote for someone who is pro-choice, even if every other issue was in line with their views.

I think a majority of the left will agree that the fewer abortions the better. The left will always support education. This is something I don't think a lot of the right understand, I don't think they understand that the left wants the fewest possible.
That's probably because that requires more sex education to get people to understand the issue, and the far right doesn't want sex education in schools.
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Old 11-06-2007, 06:29 PM   #55
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Originally posted by coemgen
Vincent, it sounds like we just misunderstood each other on the car accident scenario. I see where you’re coming from. The argument I was making could be made without the “potential person with a cure for AIDS” argument. No big deal now.

Also, I can tell you don’t take abortion lightly and I respect that. Even though we may disagree on some points, I can still see and respect where you’re coming from. Thanks for the discussion.

(P.S. I hope to get to Berlin one day. I’ve been to Köln. The cathedral there is impressive in many ways.)
Yes, of course, it also could be the "I'd an amazing life, thanks for that!" kind of person.

Was nice to discuss, thanks as well.

Well, we can't offer you something impressive as the cathedral in Köln, I'm afraid, but I would definitely say it's worth a trip!
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:45 PM   #56
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
The bottom line is that this issue will never go away. Why? Because it will always be an opinion as to when life starts. Unlike some other major issues, both sides have merit in this case, and I can respect anyone on each side, as long as they aren't trying to press religion into law.

I think both sides (in general) need to respect the other a little more. I think all pro-lifers need to respect the fact that abortion isn't an easy decision, and that those getting abortions aren't trying to "kill babies." And I think pro-choicers need to respect that fact that pro-lifers truly want the best for each and every possible child.
. I'll fully agree with every word of this. All both sides need to do now is work together and reach a compromise figuring out how to at the very least start solving this problem. There's common ground in this issue we're all bound to agree on, after all.

Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Although, I think anyone who is pro-life and anti-gay rights is contradicting themselves. If you want parents to give children to adoption instead of aborting, then why would you prevent marriages between people that in many cases would be looking to adopt?
Thank. You. I was hoping that argument would show up in here somewhere. I've always been really confused about that line of thinking as well. I also agree with all the other hypocrisy that's been mentioned in here as well...and another thing that's always bugged me has been watching people spend their days standing outside abortion clinics, calling women horrible names and yelling at them. They seem to think that by doing that they're solving things, when the truth is that they're really not-instead they're actually just making the situation more chaotic (not to mention hurting their own side even more. You don't get much support with such in-your-face methods). Once again, like you said, both sides have legitimate arguments, so it would really help if each side manages to express its viewpoint without being so harsh about it.

Angela
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:59 PM   #57
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It must be very easy to want to force a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy when one isn't pregnant themselves.
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Old 11-06-2007, 10:48 PM   #58
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So far sanity seems to have ruled the day in this thread. . .

If only we could get the politicians and the nation as a whole to start talking about this issue in such a reasonable manner. . .

:fingerscrossed:
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Old 11-07-2007, 08:57 AM   #59
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I still fail to see how this is even a political issue..... Why don't politicians care about what vitamins I take? How I treat my arthritis? Which pills my doctor subscribes? What is with people's obsessions over someone else's uterus?!?!?!

I just don't get it....
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:21 PM   #60
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I still fail to see how this is even a political issue..... Why don't politicians care about what vitamins I take? How I treat my arthritis? Which pills my doctor subscribes? What is with people's obsessions over someone else's uterus?!?!?!

I just don't get it....
To be fair, the pro-lifer's don't view it as messing with someone else's utereus. They view it as saving the life of a human being. They wouldn't care about your vitamins or arthritis because a human life is not at stake.

One of the worst thing about the abortion debate is how each side frames the opposing argument from their own point of view.

Those pro-choice people who do not believe that abortion is murder but simply a woman making a decision about what happens to her own body are able to frame opponents as wanting to take away a woman's rights over her own body (though the pro-life people DO NOT view abortion the same way pro-choicers do).

Like wise, pro-life people who believe that abortion is murder are able to framer their opponents as soulless baby-killers, again disregarding that the pro-life point of view does NOT view abortion as murder.
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