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Old 01-23-2014, 01:28 PM   #856
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
even if homosexuality were a choice, why does it matter, when religion, protected by law, is 100% a choice?
That's a great point. There's definitely a tendency among some in the pro-SSM crowd (myself included) to tailor the rhetoric aimed at the anti-SSM crowd to defer to, or at least challenge-as-gently-as-possible, religious conviction, because religion is still such a powerful social and political force. I can see the argument for that softening, too (attracting more flies with honey than vinegar, etc), but I can also see the argument that such deference to religious sensibilities just perpetuates it's hold over policy.

Personally I'm leaning towards the softer argument, and letting time and progress do it's thing - the anti-SSM crowd has already lost the battle.
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:07 PM   #857
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good.

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For the first time, a federal US judge has ruled a persecution of LGBT people is a crime against humanity.

This sets a precedent ensuring the fundamental human rights of LGBTI people are protected under international law.

It comes as a Ugandan LGBTI advocacy organization filed a lawsuit against prominent US anti-gay extremist Scott Lively.

Accused of helping to play a part in the persecution, arrest and murder of gay people in Uganda, Lively’s lawyers requested to dismiss the lawsuit.

Michael Ponsor, the US District Judge in Springfield, Massachusetts, said: ‘Widespread, systematic persecution of LGBTI people constitutes a crime against humanity that unquestionably violates international norms.’

‘The history and current existence of discrimination against LGBTI people is precisely what qualifies them as a distinct targeted group eligible for protection under international law.

‘The fact that a group continues to be vulnerable to widespread, systematic persecution in some parts of the world simply cannot shield one who commits a crime against humanity from liability.’


The lawsuit states Lively collaborated with key Ugandan government officials and religious leaders that allegedly resulted in the introduction of the ‘Kill The Gays’ bill.

The founder of Abiding Truth Ministries, Lively has made a career of stirring up anti-gay feelings in the USA and across the world.

He co-authored The Pink Swastika, which suggests ‘homosexuals were the truth inventors of Nazism and the guiding force behind many Nazi atrocities’ and the rainbow flag is a symbol of the ‘end times’.

In 2007, Lively also toured 50 cities in Russia where he is accused of recommending a ban on 'gay propaganda'.

Frank Mugisha, director of Sexual Minorities Uganda, said: ‘Today’s ruling is a significant victory for human rights everywhere but most especially for LGBTI Ugandans who are seeking accountability from those orchestrating our persecution.’

While the court battle is certainly not over, it will allow the Ugandan group to seek justice for what they believe Lively has done.

US law allows foreign citizens to sue for violations of international law in US federal courts under the Alien Tort Statute.

- See more at: Historic ruling: Judge orders anti-gay Scott Lively to stand trial for crimes against humanity | Gay Star News
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:04 PM   #858
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I'm liking this forward spinning lately.
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Old 01-24-2014, 06:32 AM   #859
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I'm all for the softer argument, and I know over the course of time that eventually the hardcore religious haters die out and will be replaced with new, more tolerant generations. But I'd still love to understand where people's arguments are coming from. Yet what I've gotten here sofar is when I'm asking any of the protesters why they think I cannot get married, why they think I am unnatural, I get no response.

Is it because on this forum I'm actually a human, just like them? That you can't actually discern who is straight or gay or bisexual on an internet forum, because they're just like everyone else? I just don't get it, and it's honestly confusing me. Why can they talk about me, but not to me?
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:26 PM   #860
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I'm all for the softer argument, and I know over the course of time that eventually the hardcore religious haters die out and will be replaced with new, more tolerant generations. But I'd still love to understand where people's arguments are coming from. Yet what I've gotten here sofar is when I'm asking any of the protesters why they think I cannot get married, why they think I am unnatural, I get no response.

me?

Probably a combination of being taught to hate something that's different, a sense of something that's "gross" is wrong, and some deep emotional issues that stem from the above two issues.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:51 AM   #861
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https://twitter.com/stevewilsonap/st...303939/photo/1


Just saw this online, pretty snazzy new outfit for the German Olympic team.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:45 AM   #862
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Regarding your request, I fail to see the point in it since same sex marriage is in no way analogous to affirmative action. And w/r/t the 14th amendment, I'm sure the core issue you're arguing is this:



The only way I can see same sex marriage coming into conflict with this is if one believes that homosexuality is a choice instead of an innate characteristic of one's being. Because if you agree that homosexuality is just as innate to a gay man as heterosexuality is to a straight man, then I fail to see how "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws" is anything but an argument in favor of same sex marriage, not against.

And if you think homosexuality is a choice, well...
How do you defend affirmative action when it leads to discrimination was my point.
There is, or was anyway, an answer and it is the same answer that allows me to provide equal protection to gays in the form of civil unions and other recognitions without redefining marriage. It also allows me, the big advocate of the Free Exercise Claus of the 1st Amendment, to discriminate against Mormons and Muslims that may wish to have polygamous marriages in this country.
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Old 01-25-2014, 12:25 PM   #863
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And again, it's not an analogous comparison because same sex marriage doesn't lead to discrimination.

Similarly, trying to defend discrimination against SSM by saying we discriminate against polygamy is not analogous. SSM is not polygamy, nor does it introduce any of the tricky legal issues polygamy does.
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Old 01-25-2014, 12:44 PM   #864
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There is, or was anyway, an answer and it is the same answer that allows me to provide equal protection to gays in the form of civil unions and other recognitions without redefining marriage.
Exactly. Separate, but equal.

How dare they?
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Old 01-25-2014, 12:45 PM   #865
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Yet what I've gotten here sofar is when I'm asking any of the protesters why they think I cannot get married, why they think I am unnatural, I get no response.
Still no direct response yet?
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:13 PM   #866
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Lawmakers Consider Preventing ALL Marriage In Oklahoma - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Look at this fucking Zac Efron wannabe.
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:16 PM   #867
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Still no direct response yet?
Nope.

And am I correct in interpreting that INDY feels he needs to be protected from the gays and people who want to redefine marriage?
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:32 PM   #868
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But SSM is analogous to racial segregation.

Righttttt.

What is analogous is social engineering through the law. It can be through drug laws for example or marriage laws. Conservatives wish to promote the nuclear family standard as ideal recognizing its role in stabilizing society, promoting self-reliance and raising prodigy while reflecting the Judeo-Christian values of Western culture.
The Left social engineers through the oppression of bigger government (social justice, income redistribution, racial quotes) and newly discovered "rights" for its own utopian vision.

The right reforms while the left radically changes.
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:36 PM   #869
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Diatribes with lots of indignation and accusations, but no direct response.

Maybe there isn't a direct response?
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:42 PM   #870
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Conservatives wish to promote the nuclear family standard as ideal recognizing its role in stabilizing society, promoting self-reliance and raising prodigy while reflecting the Judeo-Christian values of Western culture.
How is this not social engineering?
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