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Old 01-09-2014, 10:04 PM   #736
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Know what else is a choice? Not being tolerant of the long-held traditional religious beliefs of others. Or is tolerance a one-way street?

Know what else is a choice? Taking a small business to court when multiple alternate venues are willing to provide the same service.
No idea what your point is. Dude broke a law in Colorado and no one would make a fuss about whether it should have been reported if it was discrimination against any other type of minority group. You're picking this fight because your deluded bullshit has spit out a made up agenda about feminizing young boys. That is crystal clear.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:07 PM   #737
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Serious question to any libertarians:

If you support same-sex marriage on libertarian grounds is it at all consistent with that belief that the heavy-hand of government be used to force individuals to act against their religious convictions?
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:41 PM   #738
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Know what else is a choice? Not being tolerant of the long-held traditional religious beliefs of others. Or is tolerance a one-way street?

Know what else is a choice? Taking a small business to court when multiple alternate venues are willing to provide the same service.


Your religious prejudices don't trump my civil rights.

This crap about "tolerate my intolerance" is a total canard.

All that said, I'd go to another baker.

But this baker is legally wrong.
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:43 PM   #739
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Same Sex Marriage Thread - Part III

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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Serious question to any libertarians:

If you support same-sex marriage on libertarian grounds is it at all consistent with that belief that the heavy-hand of government be used to force individuals to act against their religious convictions?


Your religious convictions do not trump my civil rights.

Your religious convictions might tell you that you should murder your daughter if she has sex before marriage. But you're not allowed to murder your daughter.

Is this actually hard to grasp? You're ever vigilant about encroaching Sharia Law. Isn't that a two-way street? Or do only Christians get to play American Taliban?
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:03 AM   #740
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For a man obsessed with "religious convictions", he sure is a nasty person.
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Old 01-10-2014, 08:28 AM   #741
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Know what else is a choice? Not being tolerant of the long-held traditional religious beliefs of others. Or is tolerance a one-way street?
Know what else is a choice? Taking a small business to court when multiple alternate venues are willing to provide the same service.
I am very tolerant of the religious beliefs of others. I'll never force a Jew or a Muslim to eat pork or a Christian to do something their religion forbids. I am completely fine with religious person doing whatever their religion dictates, AS LONG as they a. do not force it onto me, and b. don't harm others in the process.


But tolerance, as you say, isn't supposed to be a one-way street. When are you going to start seeing that I'm not the intolerant one, but that you are forcing your beliefs onto me when I do not share them? I am not asking you to share my beliefs, I just want some civil rights. That is all. You don't have to agree with them you know. Nobody is forcing you to accept that people are gay. Belief is in my opinion something personal. Something YOU believe, not something YOu feel forced to force onto others. There is a reason why there is a separation between church and state.
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Old 01-10-2014, 08:33 AM   #742
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[global message]Let's back off the personal jabs, please.[/global message]
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:49 AM   #743
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All that said, I'd go to another baker.

But this baker is legally wrong.
And any same-sex marriage in Colorado is "legally wrong" as well but my guess is your call for strict adherence to Colorado jurisprudence is not uniform.
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:51 AM   #744
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And any same-sex marriage in Colorado is "legally wrong" as well but my guess is your call for strict adherence to Colorado jurisprudence is not uniform.


this is a great point.

that actually makes the baker's actions worse and weakens his case -- he really was just refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple because they were gay. they weren't even getting really married. he wouldn't have been forced to "violate" anything.

also, a "wedding cake" doesn't have a legal status. it's not a marriage certificate. we could have stayed in Virginia, thrown a "wedding" there and ordered a real wedding cake from a real wedding cake bakery, and the wedding would have no actual legal consequence. legally, it would have been a wedding cake served at some party.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:00 PM   #745
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and please feel free to address the example of refusing to bake a wedding cake for an interracial couple.

remember:

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Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:02 PM   #746
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Libertarianism always seems a coded way of saying "why can't we be racist, sexist, homophobic and anti the poor anymore?"
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:20 PM   #747
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Your religious convictions do not trump my civil rights.
I don't believe there is a civil right that recognizes "equality" between any and all arrangements wishing to be defined as a marriage. I can find the Free Exercise of Religion clause in the U.S. Constitution however.
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Your religious convictions might tell you that you should murder your daughter if she has sex before marriage. But you're not allowed to murder your daughter.
You're right. It's not like "religious conscience" is a last-ditch effort for homophobic bigots to discriminate against homosexuals. It has conflicted with laws before (peyote, the military draft, and the current HHS rules mandating contraceptive coverage coming to mind) and no less than the evil Antonin Scalia has ruled there is no constitutional entitlement to exemption from applicable laws with a clear and compelling government interest.

So worry not, murder or human sacrifice cannot be plea bargained down with religious conviction. No one is lobbying for the anarchy of blanket religious immunity. But neither should the government nor courts impose activities against the religious beliefs of individuals when not necessary. Need every thought or deed found offensive be criminalized?

Are you aware the federal government exempted the religious use of alcohol during Prohibition? Are you familiar with the long held use of "conduct exemptions" in legislation or with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act signed into law by Bill Clinton?

Quote:
Is this actually hard to grasp? You're ever vigilant about encroaching Sharia Law. Isn't that a two-way street?
I'm vigilant against Sharia Law because it cannot exist within a democracy or constitutional republic. Islamists that seek to impose Sharia Law say as much because they recognize no law but sharia (God-given) Law. Ideology prevents a two-way street from existing.
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Or do only Christians get to play American Taliban?
The relativism that goes into a statement like that is fathomless. Choosing not to participate in a same-sex marriage = stoning homosexuals to death. Wow.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:38 PM   #748
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Nobody is telling you to participate in a same sex marriage. Leave that to the gay people. All you have to do is accept they are human and stop denying them basic human rights.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:39 PM   #749
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and please feel free to address the example of refusing to bake a wedding cake for an interracial couple.

remember:
I find nothing in the Bible to support anti-miscegenation laws. And, as I've said before, I don't think discrimination based on skin color in marriage is in any way analogous to discrimination based on sex. Skin color has nothing to do with marriage; gender does. Bride-groom, wife-husband, mother-father.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:41 PM   #750
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Nobody is telling you to participate in a same sex marriage.
They were asking the baker weren't they?
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