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Old 01-06-2014, 07:21 AM   #676
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Same sex marriage is a bad thing. It is going to have very negative impacts on
on society. I don't care if homosexuals do civil contracts, but redefining the
definition of marriage is wrong.

Dennis Prager has written much on his opposition.

Oh you're real libertarian friends must be ashamed.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:09 AM   #677
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But his RELIGIOUS BELIEFS are under attack! Can you imagine how personally violated he must feel having to abide by Colorado's clear anti-discrimination laws? Much, much worse than forcing a woman to have a transvaginal ultrasound.
The baker is a man. HE gets to make the decisions. Sheesh, Irvine.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:16 AM   #678
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I don't think he should be forced to and I don't think he should be fined or jailed. But it's a fucking dumb business decision and I hope he goes close to bankruptcy or cops anger from customers, and then maybe he will realise that not making a cake for a gay couple because you think God's gonna start smiting is stupidest thing anyone could ever do.

Colorado has anti-discrimination laws, and therefore by refusing to do business to a certain customer on the basis of their sexual orientation, he is breaking the law. He couldn't refuse to bake a cake for an interracial couple on religious grounds either. Not all states have these protections in place.

Good discussions can be had on the necessity or efficacy of these laws, but what is true is that this baker is breaking the law.

For me, when we get our cake, I wouldn't give my money to anyone who didn't want to bake us a cake. And I don't think this is necessarily a good idea, from a strategy standpoint.

But the fact remains that you can't refuse to do business with a customer on the basis of race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation in colorado.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:05 AM   #679
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I don't think he should be forced either, I'll go to a different baker. But if it's the law in that state, he should obey it or move to a different state...
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:17 AM   #680
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A few of my final thoughts:

First, one of my best friends in high school and college was homosexual. He knew my view on this, but his sexual orientation was never an issue in our friendship. Charles passed away several years ago. I miss him greatly. He was a real friend.

I have a cousin who is a lesbian. We are great friends and she has always been loved and accepted in my family. Like Charles, her sexual orientation has never come between our love and friendship.

My opposition to SSM is based on my religious belief and the traditional view of marriage that societies have held a long time This is the first time in history the definition of marriage has been changed.

Some here dismissed Dennis Prager's comments because they were written ten years ago. Are we to ignore books, essays, and other works because of when they were created?

Monogamy is not usually the norm among gay couples. You can find some online sites that will disagree, but I think having more than one partner is an accepted aspect of the gay community. And yes, statistics do show that over half of married heterosexual couples engage in extramarital relationships, but it not accepted as a normal part of the relationship.

You can read stories online of adults who were raised in same sex families. I will post one link because a few here requested some evidence. Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View | Public Discourse

Some here have said my opposition is wrong or should be silenced because a majority of society are now accepting SSM. To me it is a very scary idea to embrace the view on a subject because it is the view of a majority. History is awash with examples where the view of the majority was very wrong.

Please remember, in voicing my opposition, I am attacking the idea, not the person.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:28 AM   #681
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This is the first time in history the definition of marriage has been changed.¨
Oh, really? The first time ever? You must have a different definition of "history" than everybody else, then.


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Monogamy is not usually the norm among gay couples. You can find some online sites that will disagree, but I think having more than one partner is an accepted aspect of the gay community. And yes, statistics do show that over half of married heterosexual couples engage in extramarital relationships, but it not accepted as a normal part of the relationship.
This one, I don't even know where to begin. I'll just say YOU'RE WRONG.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:37 AM   #682
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Iron Horse, you're making some pretty big claims without providing any evidence.

Gays are known to have multiple partners, more so than straight people? You've heard of swingers right?

This isn't a strong case to oppose SSM. People cheat, doesn't matter what their orientation is.

You can't deny one group of people on the basis of something that "your" group already does.

Still waiting to hear a logical, reasonable and valid point as to why gays cannot marry.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:59 AM   #683
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A few of my final thoughts:

First, one of my best friends in high school and college was homosexual. He knew my view on this, but his sexual orientation was never an issue in our friendship. Charles passed away several years ago. I miss him greatly. He was a real friend.

I have a cousin who is a lesbian. We are great friends and she has always been loved and accepted in my family. Like Charles, her sexual orientation has never come between our love and friendship.
Some would say your love and friendship for those two was limited because you did not think they deserved the same rights as you.

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My opposition to SSM is based on my religious belief and the traditional view of marriage that societies have held a long time This is the first time in history the definition of marriage has been changed.
Not quite. Polygamy was common for centuries all over the world. Some societies allowed open relationships and short term marriages. Marriage was made between a man and a woman because until recently, it was the only way to produce children and keep the tribe or society going.

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Some here dismissed Dennis Prager's comments because they were written ten years ago. Are we to ignore books, essays, and other works because of when they were created?
Prager's article has been disproven in the ten years since it was written. As I mentioned earlier, anything written to support his views since then were proven to be biased.


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Monogamy is not usually the norm among gay couples. You can find some online sites that will disagree, but I think having more than one partner is an accepted aspect of the gay community. And yes, statistics do show that over half of married heterosexual couples engage in extramarital relationships, but it not accepted as a normal part of the relationship.
This is more of an issue on how to handle monogamy. The reason why gay couples accept open relationships more because they're more open to the realities of sexuality because theirs goes against the norm.

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You can read stories online of adults who were raised in same sex families. I will post one link because a few here requested some evidence. Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View | Public Discourse
The person who wrote that had same-sex parenting when it was rare. It is becoming more common, so those kids are not going to have so many issues. Besides, children of same-sex parenting don't always have sexuality issues; many are pretty sure what they are early on.

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Some here have said my opposition is wrong or should be silenced because a majority of society are now accepting SSM. To me it is a very scary idea to embrace the view on a subject because it is the view of a majority. History is awash with examples where the view of the majority was very wrong.
The majority was once against homosexuality in general, and look at how many lives were miserable from that.


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Please remember, in voicing my opposition, I am attacking the idea, not the person.
Both are equal and the same
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Old 01-06-2014, 12:35 PM   #684
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Robert Oscar Lopez is pretty much the only person who will public ally trash his gay parents in public. He's the go-to guy for NOM and other anti-gay organizations.

It seems stunning to me to think that because one troubled young man had two moms that somehow this dismisses everything else we know about the outcomes of LGBT parents and their children. Like the evidence that suggests that children may do best with lesbian mothers. Gay people who choose to become parents are usually excellent parents because they really, really want to be parents. No gay person gets accidentally pregnant. They also tend to be older, wealthier, and in longer term relationships.

Would we hold straight people to this standard of perfection? Should I start posting stories of bad straight parents who leave their babies in dumpsters, beat them, sexually abuse them, lock them in refridgerators? By far the biggest threat to children are heterosexual men.

Dennis Prager's article is dismissible because it doesn't have anything to actually offer, other than emotionalism.

A religious objection is fine. You're free to do so. But you are not free to withhold rights from others. You may be kosher, but I'm still allowed to eat pork.
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Old 01-06-2014, 12:37 PM   #685
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Also, did it ever occur to you that the reason why there are more "open" gay relationships is because marriage as a standard/goal was never available to gay people until very recently?

Straight people conduct open relationships all the time, they are free to create their relationships as they choose.

Again, Iron Horse, I ask you: give me a list of all the bad things that have happened since SSM became legal in Massachusetts 10 years ago.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:37 PM   #686
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Monogamy is not usually the norm among gay couples. You can find some online sites that will disagree, but I think having more than one partner is an accepted aspect of the gay community. And yes, statistics do show that over half of married heterosexual couples engage in extramarital relationships, but it not accepted as a normal part of the relationship.
I'm sorry, but I am running out of words to describe how wrong you are here. I have no idea where you got this ridiculous idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was yet another bullshit argument made up by the church, like homosexuality leading to bestiality.


Homosexuals are people like you and your wife. There is no, absolutely no reason why they suddenly have a different norm when it comes to couples.

If my girlfriend were to cheat on me with someone else, I'd still call it cheating and dump her sorry ass. There is no fucking way that polygamy is any more accepted in the gay community than it is in the straight community.
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Old 01-06-2014, 04:33 PM   #687
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saying, "i hear that most gays are in open relationships" is a bit along the lines of "i hear Jews are really good with money" and "those blacks sure can dance."

but, really, are two people *who agree* to be in an open relationship really a catastrophic threat to western society? so much so that we'd base opposition to civil rights on this stereotype that may also hold true of many other groups? given all the problems in the world, and given all the other social problems that afflict us as a society, is this really something worth worrying about? or is it a
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:04 PM   #688
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It seems like when people start using aspects of relationships they don't like, it's cause they wish they had those in their life.

It's like calling a girl a whore cause she slept with someone that wasn't YOU. More upset you weren't with them, so attack their character.

If you want an open relationship, go for it. Gays do it, straight people do it.

Just cause it's not ideal to you doesn't make it right or wrong. Try not to judge so much
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:59 PM   #689
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saying, "i hear that most gays are in open relationships" is a bit along the lines of "i hear Jews are really good with money" and "those blacks sure can dance."

but, really, are two people *who agree* to be in an open relationship really a catastrophic threat to western society? so much so that we'd base opposition to civil rights on this stereotype that may also hold true of many other groups? given all the problems in the world, and given all the other social problems that afflict us as a society, is this really something worth worrying about? or is it a
Everytime I hear someone say gays should not marry or have kids because they are into kink and/or open relationships, I point out that many straight couples do the same. I then get crazy, off the wall responses trying to hard to justify anti-gay attitudes.

BTW, were you going to say more at the end there?
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:49 PM   #690
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By far the biggest threat to children are heterosexual men.
No shit.
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