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Old 07-03-2013, 10:30 AM   #451
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I suppose most are missing the moment where the host states, "I think the societal ideal is for kids to be raised in a heterosexual, married environment." That is not a statement that should be so quickly disregarded.


no, i listened to the whole thing, and he's incorrect -- the children of gays and lesbians do as well if not better than the children of heterosexual parents.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:35 AM   #452
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Aside from it being incorrect, it is worthwhile noting that people who are relying on the "societal ideal parenting" line of thought to argue against SSM are not applying it to other situations.

If one believes that the ideal situation is for a child to be raised by a mother and a father joined in marriage and that situations falling short of that ideal should not be permissible, then why not also ban (i) single mothers; (ii) single fathers; (iii) children being raised by a grandparent; (iv) children being raised by a single, older sibling, etc, etc.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:07 AM   #453
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I suppose most are missing the moment where the host states, "I think the societal ideal is for kids to be raised in a heterosexual, married environment." That is not a statement that should be so quickly disregarded.
No, that was the point. The dude hangs up on a guy who is agreeing with him on a key point.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:02 PM   #454
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Aside from it being incorrect, it is worthwhile noting that people who are relying on the "societal ideal parenting" line of thought to argue against SSM are not applying it to other situations.
.
This host was in support of SSM, but he also conceded near the beginning of the interview that the societal ideal for parenting is for heterosexual, married couples.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:07 PM   #455
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This host was in support of SSM, but he also conceded near the beginning of the interview that the societal ideal for parenting is for heterosexual, married couples.
Conceded? Or just agreed?

What Thomas Peters couldn't do was acknowledge the fact that some people get married with no intention of having children. And that gay adoption is legal almost everywhere. And the reason why is that kids do just as well if not better with L/G parents.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:36 PM   #456
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Conceded? Or just agreed?

What Thomas Peters couldn't do was acknowledge the fact that some people get married with no intention of having children. And that gay adoption is legal almost everywhere. And the reason why is that kids do just as well if not better with L/G parents.
He may have agreed instead of conceded, I'll grant you that.

I just wanted to point out that there is still a societal ideal - and that it does deserve a little respect. That's all.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:46 PM   #457
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I just wanted to point out that there is still a societal ideal - and that it does deserve a little respect. That's all.
What I find curious is - let's say we accept that a child raised by a mother and a father united in marriage is the societal ideal.

Then how do you rank all other unideal situations?

Is a single mom better than two lesbian moms? Is a single dad worse than two gay dads? Is a grandmother better than a single, lesbian mom?

I mean, how else do you come to conclude that the only group whose rights are going to be in jeopardy are gays and lesbians?
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:57 PM   #458
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I just wanted to point out that there is still a societal ideal - and that it does deserve a little respect. That's all.
Not all societal ideals deserve respect, i.e. race and marriage

Do I think the ideal situation is to be raised by the man and woman that made you? Sure, but guess what? I don't have that ideal situation. I was raised by another man and woman, who did an amazing job might I add. BUT I have absolutely no clue of my medical history and that's something that still to this day bothers me. Now my cousin didn't have that ideal situation because his father died before he was born.

But I also know A LOT of people that were raised in that "ideal" situation and had absolutely shitty childhood filled with abuse and neglect.

I think it's important for male or female to have both male and female role models in their childhood, but that doesn't mean they're going to have a mom and a dad. Gay adoption, open adoption, single mothers, single fathers, grandparent raising their grandchildren, etc. the family dynamic has changed, and you will find awesome examples and crap examples in almost every scenario you can think of.

So if one was really truly concerned about how the child will be raised, why are they not trying to legislate parenting instead of targeting just one group?
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:09 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
What I find curious is - let's say we accept that a child raised by a mother and a father united in marriage is the societal ideal.

Then how do you rank all other unideal situations?

Is a single mom better than two lesbian moms? Is a single dad worse than two gay dads? Is a grandmother better than a single, lesbian mom?

I mean, how else do you come to conclude that the only group whose rights are going to be in jeopardy are gays and lesbians?

Two is more ideal than one no matter the gender of the two. Parenting is hard. I don't know how people do it alone.

(Though I know it can be done, and done well. After all I was raised by a single mom and she did an OUTSTANDING job! I just know that it's easier if you have two)
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:42 PM   #460
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What I find curious is - let's say we accept that a child raised by a mother and a father united in marriage is the societal ideal.

Then how do you rank all other unideal situations?

Is a single mom better than two lesbian moms? Is a single dad worse than two gay dads? Is a grandmother better than a single, lesbian mom?

I mean, how else do you come to conclude that the only group whose rights are going to be in jeopardy are gays and lesbians?
I guess I would personally rank the "next best thing" as similar to what BVS described - a model of the societal ideal, a mother and father. I would not rank a gay/lesbian couple as desirable as this.

I think that by living in a homosexual partnership, a consequence (or a benefit, depends on the couple) of that partnership is no children by natural means. Yes, there are male and female couples that can't have children, and they adopt or get artificially inseminated. Do I find this acceptable? Yes, because they can at least "model" the ideal situation. And in the Scriptures that I follow, which is my source of wisdom - even Jesus grew up in a less than ideal situation. But he had a step-dad, and that is a model for a father.

Now, the question is - how far away from the ideal should we allow? My conscience tells me that a gay or lesbian couple adopting is too far away from that ideal. I know that my mind is biased - and that I risk being called a bigot, but my conscience remains convinced of this point despite the social pressure to think otherwise. I realize that in 20 years some may look at this post and think, "wow" - people actually thought that way. Heck - in 20 years I may eventually change my mind on this, I've changed it before. But as of this moment - when I see a picture of a gay lesbian couple holding a baby - I can't help to think it is more about the couple than it is about the child.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:51 PM   #461
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I guess I would personally rank the "next best thing" as similar to what BVS described - a model of the societal ideal, a mother and father. I would not rank a gay/lesbian couple as desirable as this.
i think you misunderstood me, or perhaps I should have been clearer, but I don't believe those models have to live under the same roof. I believe if you're a single mother or lesbian couple it's important to provide a strong male role model be it in a grandfather or uncle. The same for single fathers or gay couples.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:52 PM   #462
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But as of this moment - when I see a picture of a gay lesbian couple holding a baby - I can't help to think it is more about the couple than it is about the child.

Believe me, it's about the child to the couple.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:54 PM   #463
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Wow I hadn't read that far down...
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:03 PM   #464
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Believe me, it's about the child to the couple.
Of course - I can never prove otherwise.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:16 PM   #465
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I just wanted to point out that there is still a societal ideal - and that it does deserve a little respect. That's all.
Societal ideals based on nothing but tradition? Why would that deserve respect?
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