Same Sex Marriage Thread-Part 2

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An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.
Do you know what the word fact means? Because most your post was, for my money, opinion.

You seem rather indoctrinated, to me, but I would admit that as an opinion, not a fact. You also seem like the type of person who would call me indoctrinated with anti-Americanism, and then tell me that it is a fact, and not your opinion.

Again, my opinion, not a fact.
 
Depends on if they're educated or indoctrinated.

An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.

Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?




and you come across as shockingly indoctrinated in misguided patriotism and blind nationalism.

nowhere in that post is a factual, articulate defense of the values and successes of the US.
 
Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?

I love how daring to criticize some aspect of a country is somehow equivalent to being "anti-American" nowadays. It isn't at all possible to love your country and appreciate its good points while still pointing out areas where it could do better-no, that invites shades of gray, and seeing both sides of something, and we can't have that.

It's not silly at all. Our constitution cultivated rule of law, limited government and Judeo-Christian values.

And as we all know, being Christian automatically means you have good intentions with anything you do. No wolves in sheep's clothing, or anything like that.

The American Dream exists because our society, above all others, fosters a view of aspiration, rather than envy, towards success. We prosper because of that. We are freer because we value liberty over equality of outcome. We are more tolerant because we have been from the outset a nation of E Pluribus Unum.

As noted, there's plenty of countries that have similar things. I think it's fantastic that our country supports such beliefs and values (even if we don't always seem to practice what we preach), but we're not the only ones who are like that, nor are we even the first ones to come up with the concepts.

Not when the American people support you. Our system is supposed to move with deliberation and consensus. That's only a problem when you're an imperial president trying to move "forward" while the majority of the country is yelling "stop!!"

Right, which explains why Obama's approval rating generally ranges from reasonably good to strong?

And again, he's come out in support of same sex marriage, and his views seem to be in line with a good portion of the country-as I noted, support for gay marriage is increasing, not decreasing. So I'm curious as to what majority this is you're referring to that's telling him to stop doing...something.

The above response was too easy a retort. How about addressing this:

The chances of him addressing a lot of the things I and others ask of him are pretty slim, but hey, I'll wait with you and see what happens.
 
I love how daring to criticize some aspect of a country is somehow equivalent to being "anti-American" nowadays.

I really have to wonder how much INDY has travelled or if he's lived abroad at all because he really seems to operate on the assumption that most of the rest of the human race spends its days in some sort of anti-American madrasas.
 
My parents (avid Fox News watchers; seriously, I have no other idea where they got these crazy notions) reacted to the news that I was going to visit Ireland by myself (roughly) thusly:

".... but they're so anti-American in Europe right now! It's not safe to go!"

I had to stop myself from laughing. I'm pretty sure the mental image they had in their head were gangs of Europeans waiting on the tarmac with baseball bats, just biding their time until an American touched foot on the ground.

Naturally, now that they've heard all about my trip, they're thinking about going themselves. ;)
 
I don't know, anitram. Seriously, I've never been outside the U.S. at all, but I'm pretty certain that most people in other parts of the world have no problem with our country or its people at large. They may question our policies, sure, but first off, last I checked that wasn't illegal-they're allowed to do that. And second, hell, we go around criticizing the policies of countries that are our allies day in and day out, so turnabout's fair play, I'd say.

And anyone who does automatically make negative stereotypes about this country and its people based on the actions of some would be an idiot, anyway.

Also, Cori, anytime you go to Ireland in the future, can I go with you :p?

And meant to say earlier as well, the pictures you shared, MrsS? Thank you.

That is all :shifty:.
 
Which comes first, the constitution or the political culture? The answer is it's an interplay of the two, among other things. The soviet union and more than a couple of post-independence African republics had wonderful constitutions on paper... that didn't mean a thing.

As for American exceptionalism, ptah to that. The ideas that attended the birth of the US were part and parcel of the broader enlightenment ideals floating around Britain and France in that era. Without the bountiful accident of nature, the USA would be a more religious Australia. Conversely, without the political culture gifted by (particularly) eighteenth century post-glorious-revolution Britain, it might have ended up looking like Bolivar's version of a united states.
 
Depends on if they're educated or indoctrinated.

An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.

Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?

What facts exactly are we talking about here? Because the post that was quoted before doesn't seem to have any.

Sorry bro, I'm not anti America, I'm just European and educated. And America is NOT the biggest player with amazing healthcare and freedom and tolerance. Your healthcare is pretty damn shitty, it's the worst of the entire western world. Many people don't have insurance because they can't afford it, and because so many people don't have it, it will never get affordable. People don't go to dentists or doctors anymore to save money. How the fuck is that greatest healthcare of all??

And tolerance? Don't make me laugh.

Please come live here for a year. You'll see what I mean.
 
Right, it only led to the most prosperous, tolerant and freest society... like, ever. The beacon of liberty, champion of free enterprise*, the sole superpower*, emancipator of slaves and Europe (twice), engine to scientific and technological innovation, beneficiary of the most advanced health care in the world*, home to more immigrants than the rest of the world combined and finally, the "last best hope of earth."

*pending results of 2012 election

It still staggers me how a person could actually say this.
 
Kieran McConville said:
Without the bountiful accident of nature, the USA would be a more religious Australia.

You say "accident." We say, "God knew what he was doing all along and populated this nearly perfect piece of land with naked people who had no guns so they'd be easy to get out of the way as well as provided a welfare-to-work program for 55m Africans, the strongest of whom were (eventually) given the greatest gift of all, which is American citizenship."

Lotsa facts there!
 
Irvine511 said:
You say "accident." We say, "God knew what he was doing all along and populated this nearly perfect piece of land with naked people who had no guns so they'd be easy to get out of the way as well as provided a welfare-to-work program for 55m Africans, the strongest of whom were (eventually) given the greatest gift of all, which is American citizenship."

Lotsa facts there!

Well now you're just being unconstitutional.
 
Irvine511 said:
if you guys don't agree that America is the best at everything ever, then you must hate America and everything it stands for.

that's how it works.

You forgot "so you can just giiiit out"
 
INDY500 said:
Right, it only led to the most prosperous, tolerant and freest society... like, ever. The beacon of liberty, champion of free enterprise*, the sole superpower*, emancipator of slaves and Europe (twice), engine to scientific and technological innovation, beneficiary of the most advanced health care in the world*, home to more immigrants than the rest of the world combined and finally, the "last best hope of earth."

*pending results of 2012 election

You're what's wrong with America, but you're too ignorant and arrogant to realize it
 
The chances of him addressing a lot of the things I and others ask of him are pretty slim, but hey, I'll wait with you and see what happens.

Pardon me if I don't answer the same question for the umpteenth time. I've said over and over that process is important. You want to fracture the country even further then impose same-sex marriage on the country from the bench. It's been 40 years since Roe Vs Wade and abortion now is a party line/litmus issue. Is that good?

If SSM becomes legal through the consent of the governed then so be it. But not at the loss of political self-determination, the loss of religious freedom or the loss of free speech. We aren't Canada.

The intimidation, political bullying and rhetoric from politicians and SSM advocates related to recent events such as Chick-fil-A and the publishing of names and addresses of donors to causes opposed to SSM frankly scares the crap out of me. It's not only un-American but everything SSM supporters project on their opponents... it's borne of sheer hate.
 
I love how daring to criticize some aspect of a country is somehow equivalent to being "anti-American" nowadays. It isn't at all possible to love your country and appreciate its good points while still pointing out areas where it could do better-no, that invites shades of gray, and seeing both sides of something, and we can't have that.

You know what was not in my post?

Any suggestion that ours is a perfect country, a country with no failings or a country with no contradictory chapters in its history. That is read into it however because most here are only versed in the "areas where it could do better" and never learned, apparently, how to appreciate or defend "its good points."

It certainly explains how a Barack Obama can be elected president in the same country that reelected Ronald Reagan with 49 states less than 30 years ago.
 
INDY500 said:
Pardon me if I don't answer the same question for the umpteenth time. I've said over and over that process is important. You want to fracture the country even further then impose same-sex marriage on the country from the bench. It's been 40 years since Roe Vs Wade and abortion now is a party line/litmus issue. Is that good?

If SSM becomes legal through the consent of the governed then so be it. But not at the loss of political self-determination, the loss of religious freedom or the loss of free speech. We aren't Canada.

The intimidation, political bullying and rhetoric from politicians and SSM advocates related to recent events such as Chick-fil-A and the publishing of names and addresses of donors to causes opposed to SSM frankly scares the crap out of me. It's not only un-American but everything SSM supporters project on their opponents... it's borne of sheer hate.

This is fucking garbage Indy. So it's not right for you to lose the right to be a homophobe, but it's right for you to say to irvine that he is inferior and shouldn't be allowed to get married?
 
Pardon me if I don't answer the same question for the umpteenth time. I've said over and over that process is important. You want to fracture the country even further then impose same-sex marriage on the country from the bench. It's been 40 years since Roe Vs Wade and abortion now is a party line/litmus issue. Is that good?

I said earlier that I personally don't care if legalization comes through either the people or the courts-whichever one legalizes it, or if both support it, that's fine by me. I definitely think the abortion issue has been horribly mishandled by political parties over the years, but that's another topic unto itself. I just ultimately think, be it through the people or through the courts, gay marriage should be legalized because of the whole "civil rights" thing and because it is the just, fair, logical thing to do. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever a gay couple should be denied the chance to be married to each other and have their marriage recognized by law.

And see, right there, we have an issue: your use of the word "impose". Judges declaring gay couples have the right to get married if they so wish does not equate to "forcing" something on the country at large (which, again, is becoming more and more supported by said country at large, so it's not like they're going up against a huge resistance here), which I'll explain below:

If SSM becomes legal through the consent of the governed then so be it. But not at the loss of political self-determination, the loss of religious freedom or the loss of free speech. We aren't Canada.

Except there's no indication any of that's going to happen here. Judges saying gay couples can get married doesn't mean that they're trying to force churches to marry gay couples whether they want to or not-again, that whole "separation of church and state" thing. It also doesn't mean that they're saying anti-gay marriage people can't continue to oppose it (though, really, the anti-gay marriage side really should just give it up because opposing such a thing is stupid, pointless, and they're going to lose in the end, and there's a zillion things MUCH more worthy of their concern than that anyway). Again, I live in a state that legalized gay marriage. None of what you worry about has happened here. Not one thing.


And I don't know about Canada and how the laws have changed since gay marriage became legal there-Canadians here can answer that better than I can, but it wouldn't surprise me if the anti-gay marriage side exaggerated that stuff. Basically, so far from what I understand it sounds like their complaints boil down to, "We can't go on being openly prejudiced and discriminating anymore", to which I say, "Tough. Why would you want to be that way?"

Someone can continue to be against gay marriage all they want, and say so, but I'm not really holding any sympathy for their views not being taken seriously.

The intimidation, political bullying and rhetoric from politicians and SSM advocates related to recent events such as Chick-fil-A and the publishing of names and addresses of donors to causes opposed to SSM frankly scares the crap out of me. It's not only un-American but everything SSM supporters project on their opponents... it's borne of sheer hate.

Fight fire with fire, I guess, that's about all I can explain that with.

And yes, imagine that, we hate the fact that people are being denied equal rights for the most absurd of reasons. The two things aren't comparable. Not even close.

(I'd also point out that while we here disagreed vehmently with Chick-Fil-A's stance on the gay marriage thing, we also agreed that they're a private company and can do what they wish.)

You know what was not in my post?

Any suggestion that ours is a perfect country, a country with no failings or a country with no contradictory chapters in its history. That is read into it however because most here are only versed in the "areas where it could do better" and never learned, apparently, how to appreciate or defend "its good points."

No, you just went on a massively glowing post about how our country is so much better than everyone else's, and insinuated that those of us who disagreed even slightly were "indoctrinated" and "anti-American".

We read your post exactly as you intended it.

And we'll gladly mention the country's good points when necessary. Heck, I think the "Feel good stories" thread alone is full of examples of America and its people at its best, and I can list my own personal examples of where I think this country gets it right. Just that since we are in a thread where many here think this is an area that America could improve its stance in, it kind of stands to reason that we're going to be a bit critical of how this country is handling this issue. If we were in a thread talking about the good things our country is doing or has done, we would be stating that sort of thing there.

Plus, people like to complain about anything. I complain, you complain, everyone complains. That's life. It doesn't mean, however, that we "haven't learned how to appreciate or defend" our country's good moments.
 
Banning abortion is big government. So is banning gay marriage. Your party is supposed to be against big government.

Your party is really just against anything that isn't white, straight and religious.
 
And I don't know about Canada and how the laws have changed since gay marriage became legal there-Canadians here can answer that better than I can

You know what it changed? Absolutely nothing. Indy will try to tell you otherwise, but he lives in a fantasy world. Around 5% of our population is now treated as full fledged human beings, where in other countries they'd be treated as secondary. I can't stand misplaced patriotism, but I'm proud to live in a country dominated by modern, educated decisions
 
I've said over and over that process is important.

This is horseshit and will be your line until the 'process' catches up to the modern world. Then you'll find something else to hide your bigotry behind
 
Pardon me if I don't answer the same question for the umpteenth time. I've said over and over that process is important.

Pardon me, I haven't seen you up in arms over various ballot initiatives to overturn the legislative process. The referendum in Washington State being but one example.
 
Funny how important 'process' and 'definition' become only when this topic comes up
 
You know what it changed? Absolutely nothing. Indy will try to tell you otherwise, but he lives in a fantasy world. Around 5% of our population is now treated as full fledged human beings, where in other countries they'd be treated as secondary. I can't stand misplaced patriotism, but I'm proud to live in a country dominated by modern, educated decisions

Oh, yeah, I figured that. I just didn't know if there were any weird stories about some "attempt" at the sorts of things INDY fears happening somewhere that made the news up there or something.

EDIT:
"How could I deny anyone the right to have that incredible bond with another individual in life? To me that seems almost cruel."

Exactly. I don't get how people still don't understand this. I also liked her bit about throwing a wedding for her daughter and her comment on calling them "domestic partnerships".

Good on you, Maureen Walsh.
 
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