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Old 08-07-2012, 10:36 PM   #121
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Though, as I noted in the last thread, I'm fine with polygamy being legal, as long as everyone's of legal age and consenting. And once more, you can CHOOSE to be polygamous, you aren't born polygamous. Which is why the comparison isn't quite the same.
I respect that you are consistent but you can't choose to be polygamous if it's illegal where you live. If marriage is about love, commitment and support who are we to judge if a man falls in love with 3 women? If marriage is anything but between one man and one woman you can't.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:44 PM   #122
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Since Indy is big on defending the ancient foundations of modern society, he might want to have a look at Alexander the Great's life; Someone who had a bigger impact on modern civilization than any of the bible thumpers (real or imagined) he likes to hold sacred.
Nope, no homo eroticism there
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:45 PM   #123
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Oh, we're counting Pagans?
Really?
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:47 PM   #124
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I like that this topic has brought out the hardline dictionary thumping religious folk. Who would've thought they hold definitions so dear?
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:49 PM   #125
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So, the slippery slope? You believe that if gay marriage is legalized, the floodgates will open?

Look, I get it. You envision a future where people start making the argument that polygamy should be legal because, scientifically, mammals are not meant to have only one sexual partner.
No, only that any legal argument falls apart once the definition becomes fleeting.
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Frankly, I think you are too smart not to know the difference, so this argument is disappointing.
Not arguing, just seeing what we can agree on. So one; we agree no government, society or tribe in history has not definded marriage in some way. Right?

Next, do you think men and women have innate qualities other than the naughty bits being different?
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:50 PM   #126
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These guys seem pretty comfortable together too



Or are we only counting the lack of homosexuality in art and history after the christians started burning them?
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:52 PM   #127
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[QUOTE=INDY500;7551353]Oh, we're counting Pagans?


why wouldn't we?


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That men and women are interchangeable apart from their plumbing and that marriage is a civil right. And maybe to some degree that to be against same-sex marriage is to be anti-gay. I don't believe those things... you do. That is the difference.

so separate but equal then. yes?
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:53 PM   #128
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Oh, we're counting Pagans?

You guys have been celebrating their holidays for the last 1700 years, so it's only fair
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:54 PM   #129
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I respect that you are consistent but you can't choose to be polygamous if it's illegal where you live. If marriage is about love, commitment and support who are we to judge if a man falls in love with 3 women? If marriage is anything but between one man and one woman you can't.


the slippery slope argument holds no water. polygamy is illegal. it is not illegal to be gay.

further, polygamists can marry one person they love. i can't marry anybody i love.

polygamists -- or polyamorists, i know of a woman who lives with and says she loves two men -- are free to fight their own battles. but this is not the same as being gay.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:57 PM   #130
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No, only that any legal argument falls apart once the definition becomes fleeting.

garbage. we now have an age of consent. women must now consent. would you argue these are bad things, that we now don't allow adult men to marry girls in their early teens?
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:57 PM   #131
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Next, do you think men and women have innate qualities other than the naughty bits being different?


and because of this we must prevent gay people from getting married.

ok?

i don't see how if i get married to a man that means that men and women are the same. do we really need to deliberately target our discrimination against certain groups of people in order to prove something? isn't this the same as saying that we need Jim Crow laws because if we don't then black people will start thinking that they're white people, and why on earth do we have races then? isn't it self evident that black people and white people are different?

sorry, i should multi quote.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:05 PM   #132
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I don't remember saying that. I recognize all your human and constitutional rights which is why I support civil unions. Marriage, wife, husband, bride, groom and spouse all have meanings and definitions however. I understand perfectly why you might wish to marry someone you love at some time in your life. I'm not patronizing you when I tell you I wish you happiness in your life. It just happens that you've bought into a narrative that I haven't:

That men and women are interchangeable apart from their plumbing and that marriage is a civil right. And maybe to some degree that to be against same-sex marriage is to be anti-gay. I don't believe those things... you do. That is the difference.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just get that simple point across in some way.
Methinks there's a lot of hypocrisy in this post that you may not be aware of.

Saying you're just trying to get a point across sounds like you are trying to change people's minds.

Also, saying you support human and constitutional rights for homosexuals yet turn around and say they should not get married reeks of contradiction. Its been said time after time in FYM that denying marriage to gay people is denying their human rights. If you are saying they are not worthy of marriage because of who they love, you are basically saying gay people are less than human. How is that supporting human rights?
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:09 PM   #133
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Governments have marriage definitions, yes. Can we agree that governments also change their laws from time to time on various issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500
Next, do you think men and women have innate qualities other than the naughty bits being different?
There are some trends, but not uniformly, no.

Why does this matter in this discussion, though?
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:11 PM   #134
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it seems that INDY thinks that the only way we can preserve and prove necessary gender differences is to discriminate against gay people.

or am i reading this wrong?

what does preventing gay people from getting married really accomplish, other than to prevent gay people from getting married?

it's like the religious freedom argument. how does the existence of gay people infringe upon your right to freely practice your religion? moreover, how does the fact that gay people sometimes marry each other somehow prevent you from practicing your religion? isn't all that will happen when gay people get married is that it will be a little bit more difficult for people who don't believe that gay people should get married to hold this believe that gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married?

my big issue is that gay people seem to be the objects of blame -- and, yet, objects of immense cultural power with the ability to eradicate gender itself -- for things that we have nothing to do with.

kind of like how i'm responsible for out-of-wedlock births.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:15 PM   #135
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Oh, we're counting Pagans?
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You're really just taking the piss, aren't you?
.
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