Same Sex Marriage Thread-Part 2

[Jive Turkey]

Sean, what would you say to this (And I mean this in a completely respectable tone because you seem to me to be absolutely respectable).
I've always thought about religion as being on a sliding scale. There are the fundamentalists who take the word of the bible (or whatever their book may be) at face value; The word of god is the word of god and there is no way around it. But there are also those who follow religion on more of a spiritual or karmic basis; Do unto others, be a good person, etc. My thought has always been that, on the sliding scale, the people in the latter category are actually less religious (or rather, closer to the agnostics), than the fundamentalists. You're both following the same 'word' so to speak, yet the latter group skews much further toward an agnostic view of the world; That much of the hateful speak (being gay is wrong, for example) is actually closer to the real message and if you sway from that, you're actually swaying from the word of the bible. I'm not sure where I'm going with this (and it's 5:30 on a Saturday morning, if you get my meaning), but I guess my point is, many Christian or Muslim or whatever would like to distance themselves from the fundamentalists. I believe that the fundamentalists are actually the most religious and those that are less fanatical have actually let agnostic principals into their beliefs (again, it's 5:30 and I'm rambling and havent actually asked you anything, but maybe you can elaborate on this.... and I can read it when I wake up)

 

[Jive Turkey]

Feel free not to answer that, Sean.

 

[Irvine511]

Feel free not to answer that, Sean.

typical Canadian.

 

[maycocksean]

Feel free not to answer that, Sean.

Ah, what the heck. . .

Sean, what would you say to this (And I mean this in a completely respectable tone because you seem to me to be absolutely respectable).
I've always thought about religion as being on a sliding scale. There are the fundamentalists who take the word of the bible (or whatever their book may be) at face value; The word of god is the word of god and there is no way around it. But there are also those who follow religion on more of a spiritual or karmic basis; Do unto others, be a good person, etc. My thought has always been that, on the sliding scale, the people in the latter category are actually less religious (or rather, closer to the agnostics), than the fundamentalists. You're both following the same 'word' so to speak, yet the latter group skews much further toward an agnostic view of the world; That much of the hateful speak (being gay is wrong, for example) is actually closer to the real message and if you sway from that, you're actually swaying from the word of the bible. I'm not sure where I'm going with this (and it's 5:30 on a Saturday morning, if you get my meaning), but I guess my point is, many Christian or Muslim or whatever would like to distance themselves from the fundamentalists. I believe that the fundamentalists are actually the most religious and those that are less fanatical have actually let agnostic principals into their beliefs (again, it's 5:30 and I'm rambling and havent actually asked you anything, but maybe you can elaborate on this.... and I can read it when I wake up)

I think I see what you are getting at, and that may be true in some cases.

But I certainly wouldn't say it's always true. I know many very conservative fundamentalist Christians who aren't particularly spiritual. In the Christian faith I've come up with there is a high value and having a personal connection, a "relationship" or even a friendship with Christ. Those that would seem to know Jesus in this way would be what I'd describe as highly spiritual and/or religious (though many differentiate between those two terms--it's very cool to say "I'm not really religious, I'm more spiritual, you know"). There are lots of very strict fundamentalist Christians who don't seem to have this type of spirituality and may not even claim to. On the other hand there are very liberal Christians who are also very religious in this way, in that they seem to have a very close connection to Jesus, i.e. that He is very real in their lives even though they aren't necessarily strict Biblical literalists.

I myself like to say that "I'm more religious and not very spiritual"--partly as a contrarian go-against-the-aforementioned-trend, but also because my personality is much more comfortable with theological discussion and analysis than the more touchy-feely aspects of faith. For a lot of reasons my relationship with God is very conflicted.

I know it all may sound a bit weird, but hopefully it gives you a sense of what things look like from inside a believer's perspective.

 

[Irvine511]

i think that's a very interesting viewpoint, and not one i've heard expressed much.

 

[martha]

I read this in the paper this afternoon and may have had something in my eye just then.

With promotion, U.S. Army welcomes first openly gay general - latimes.com

 

[cobl04]

, but I'm not sure why we have to keep saying "openly gay". Surely "gay" would suffice?

 

[martha]

There's a difference. I keep trying to type something coherent, but I can't. Irvine will explain it better than I can.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Hepner and Smith got married last year in Washington, D.C. They dated for nine before that. Before don’t ask, don’t tell was repealed, they could not present themselves as a couple at military functions.

Unbelievable *Shakes head*.

The picture accompanying that article is very cool. Great story . Good to see people finally getting it and supporting such progress.

 

[Jive Turkey]

, but I'm not sure why we have to keep saying "openly gay". Surely "gay" would suffice?

Because for all they know, there have been gay Generals who didn't tell anyone. And there probably were. Saying "the first gay general" would likely be inaccurate

 

[Jive Turkey]

Ah, what the heck. . .



I think I see what you are getting at, and that may be true in some cases.

But I certainly wouldn't say it's always true. I know many very conservative fundamentalist Christians who aren't particularly spiritual. In the Christian faith I've come up with there is a high value and having a personal connection, a "relationship" or even a friendship with Christ. Those that would seem to know Jesus in this way would be what I'd describe as highly spiritual and/or religious (though many differentiate between those two terms--it's very cool to say "I'm not really religious, I'm more spiritual, you know"). There are lots of very strict fundamentalist Christians who don't seem to have this type of spirituality and may not even claim to. On the other hand there are very liberal Christians who are also very religious in this way, in that they seem to have a very close connection to Jesus, i.e. that He is very real in their lives even though they aren't necessarily strict Biblical literalists.

I myself like to say that "I'm more religious and not very spiritual"--partly as a contrarian go-against-the-aforementioned-trend, but also because my personality is much more comfortable with theological discussion and analysis than the more touchy-feely aspects of faith. For a lot of reasons my relationship with God is very conflicted.

I know it all may sound a bit weird, but hopefully it gives you a sense of what things look like from inside a believer's perspective.

Thank you for your thoughtful, genuine reply to my semi-coherent drunken ramblings

 

[Irvine511]

Because for all they know, there have been gay Generals who didn't tell anyone. And there probably were. Saying "the first gay general" would likely be inaccurate

yes, exactly.

 

[nathan1977]

I thought this article was fascinating, particularly in light of the controversy surrounding Regenerus' study. I remember taking a Queer Studies course in college and hearing the stories of bisexual people who felt oddly disenfranchised both from gay culture and straight culture. This article seems to support that experience.

Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View ? Public Discourse

 

[Irvine511]

Fascinating? That he blames his discomfort with his bisexuality on his lesbian mothers?

Even if my peers’ parents were divorced, and many of them were, they still grew up seeing male and female social models. They learned, typically, how to be bold and unflinching from male figures and how to write thank-you cards and be sensitive from female figures. These are stereotypes, of course, but stereotypes come in handy when you inevitably leave the safety of your lesbian mom’s trailer and have to work and survive in a world where everybody thinks in stereotypical terms, even gays.

[...]

In terms of sexuality, gays who grew up in traditional households benefited from at least seeing some kind of functional courtship rituals around them. I had no clue how to make myself attractive to girls. When I stepped outside of my mothers’ trailer, I was immediately tagged as an outcast because of my girlish mannerisms, funny clothes, lisp, and outlandishness. Not surprisingly, I left high school as a virgin, never having had a girlfriend, instead having gone to four proms as a wisecracking sidekick to girls who just wanted someone to chip in for a limousine.

I know it's very, very tough to find kids who will trash their gay parents, even after this fully discredited "study," but you'd think anti-gay groups would be able to pay at least someone better than Robert.

 

[nathan1977]

Fascinating?

I found his reflective nature -- as well as his experiences -- fascinating.

I know it's very, very tough to find kids who will trash their gay parents, even after this fully discredited "study," but you'd think anti-gay groups would be able to pay at least someone better than Robert.

Those are strong charges. Is that what happened?

 

[PhilsFan]

He seems to be blaming all of his problems on his parents' sexuality, as if that was the only piece of the puzzle that was different. It's pretty baseless.

 

[nathan1977]

He seems to be blaming all of his problems on his parents' sexuality, as if that was the only piece of the puzzle that was different. It's pretty baseless.

I didn't get that he blamed all his parents' sexuality -- rather that it started with some form of gender/identity confusion, and extended out into the culture as a whole. His frustration seems to be that he felt stuck between two worlds -- not, as I imagine, an uncommon feeling.

 

[Irvine511]

I'm on a mobile, but in a nutshell, the study equated broken families with LGBT families, like Robert does.

So if a woman were with a man, the marriage ended, she then had a girlfriend for any period of time, and then went on to any other relationships, she was considered a "lesbian mother."

Robert seems to think this model, as well as having a mother who dies at 19, to be representative of "bisexual parenting." he seems to assume that a bisexual is incapable of committing to a partner as well.

You can feel the self-loathing in the piece, and you can see the Exodus-like mentality of sex, love, and romance as a series of difficult choices and obligations that require him to actively and consciously conform to a pre existing set of behavioral expectations required by his possession of a penis.

Its sad.

 

[cobl04]

Quite simply, growing up with gay parents was very difficult, and not because of prejudice from neighbors. People in our community didn’t really know what was going on in the house. To most outside observers, I was a well-raised, high-achieving child, finishing high school with straight A’s.

Inside, however, I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird. I have no mental health disorders or biological conditions. I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast.

Sounds like a woe-is-me attitude problem to me.

To be honest, I think this issue is probably the best one that anti-gay marriage people have, and it's the only one I've ever given some credence to. I don't agree with it, because there have been millions of kids who didn't grow up in a "traditional" family who have gone on to lead great lives, but I can sort of see where some are coming from with it.

LOL at 248 people being a "massive" study.

 

[Irvine511]

I didn't get that he blamed all his parents' sexuality -- rather that it started with some form of gender/identity confusion, and extended out into the culture as a whole. His frustration seems to be that he felt stuck between two worlds -- not, as I imagine, an uncommon feeling.

People feel gender confusion with or without bisexual mothers. He seems to think it would have been different if he'd had a father. Who can say? Sounds like there are things Robert doesn't like about himself and he's throwing rocks in the air.

A gay hispanic boy growing up in the Bronx is likely never goin to have an easy time. Robert isn't helping those kids at all.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I saw a crime story on TV once about a man who'd killed his wife. Apparently he'd had a history of dressing up like a woman and acting feminine in nature.

It was traced back to his childhood, where his father beat him and his brother (brothers? I can't remember how many he had), but not his sister. He took that to mean that if he dressed more like a girl and acted like a girl that he might escape the abuse somehow.

He grew up in a heterosexual parent household.

(I found it strange, though, that the story focused so much on his cross-dressing and made a big thing out of it. He'd also had an incident where he tried to stab his wife in the head and had had other violent outbursts over the years. I found that stuff much more disconcerting than the fact he dressed up like a girl. I think the abuse from his childhood had much more of an effect on his behavior than the cross-dressing did. But the show and trial made a big thing out of the latter. Of course.)

 

[anitram]

Inside, however, I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird.

I really took issue with this because there are many, many of us whose home lives were drastically different from everyone around you - any immigrant kid who grows up in a community where nobody is like them, where nobody speaks their language or understands their customs or their "weird/smelly" food, etc. knows of what I speak. I've had friends who were the only non-white people in the county, nevermind their town (and some as exotic as Hindu on top of it). And you know what, we didn't grow up "weird".

I actually feel badly for him - think he has a lot of self-esteem issues.

 

[martha]

I know kids who haven't had a household drastically different who grow up "weird".

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Yeah, "weird" can mean a variety of things. And sometimes it's associated with bad stuff, but sometimes it's also a good thing. I fully believe everyone can point to some aspect of themselves that others would find "weird". Sticking out from others in some way isn't the issue in and of itself. It's how the person deals with being different that matters.

And besides that, a person may think they're all alone in their weirdness sometimes, but there's probably more people like them out there than they realize. It's just a matter of how often the things that set them apart get talked about in public, really, or how easily they can find other like-minded people in their area or elsewhere.

 

[Pearl]

Unfortunately, the Black and Latino communities are known for their homophobia, so there certainly was no support for Robert almost anywhere.

I didn't like how he said he "chose" to marry a woman and be monogamous. He makes it sound like he grudgingly did that. Also, it is my understanding that bisexuals are capable of being monogamous, no matter who or what gender they end up with.

 

[yolland]

I actually feel badly for him - think he has a lot of self-esteem issues.

Same here. And despite his careful framing of the story, the main impression I was left with was of a man with an atypical gender expression who was judged, tormented and ostracized by peers for it, internalized their perceptions, and still struggles with it. ("When I stepped outside of my mothers’ trailer, I was immediately tagged as an outcast because of my girlish mannerisms, funny clothes, lisp, and outlandishness...I befriended people rarely and alienated others easily...When I got to college, I set off everyone’s “gaydar” and the campus LGBT group quickly descended upon me to tell me it was 100-percent certain I must be a homosexual...Though I am hard-working and a quick learner, I have trouble in professional settings because co-workers find me bizarre...")

But what's completely unconvincing to me is his defeatist--painfully, piteously defeatist--rationalization that growing up without a father made him "destined to exist as a social outcast." It isn't remotely typical for men who grew up never having a father around to lisp, have "outlandish" "girlish" mannerisms, wear "funny" clothes, and as adults read to their coworkers as "bizarre." Sure, a minority of them do--and so do a minority of men who grew up in nice, normal, Chick-Fil-A-approved families with dads who tried as hard as any others to teach their "weird" sons how to act like proper boys. IF there's any "blessing," as he puts it, that gay men (or perhaps better, gender-atypical men) who did grow up in such families received that he didn't, maybe it's just that that made it that much harder for them to evade the pain of taking ownership of who they are by compartmentalizing and attributing the most despised parts of themselves to some external force (Mom, Satan, campus LGBT group...).

I also found it very strange how little detail he was willing to offer about his upbringing, considering how much he wants to pin on it. Was his mother closeted? Was he pressured to keep her relationship and its place in his own social life a secret ("People in our community didn’t really know what was going on in the house")? Why did she spend 15 or so years (??--again, he's curiously vague as to the timeframe) raising her son as a single mother during the week, then bringing him along on weekends to "a trailer tucked discreetly in an RV park 50 minutes away from the town where we lived"? Would anyone describe such an arrangement as "heterosexual parenting" had the mother's love interest been a man instead?

Finally--and with all due acknowledgment of the fact that I know absolutely nothing about his wife or what his relationship with her is like--I cannot help wondering how she felt and what she thought when she read this:

As a man, though I am bisexual, I do not get to throw away the mother of my child as if she is a used incubator. I had to help my wife through the difficulties of pregnancy and postpartum depression. When she is struggling with discrimination against mothers or women at a sexist workplace, I have to be patient and listen. I must attend to her sexual needs. Once I was a father, I put aside my own homosexual past and vowed never to divorce my wife or take up with another person, male or female, before I died. I chose that commitment in order to protect my children from dealing with harmful drama, even as they grow up to be adults.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Ooh, yeah, that last part is very strangely worded.

As a man, though I am bisexual, I do not get to throw away the mother of my child as if she is a used incubator. I had to help my wife through the difficulties of pregnancy and postpartum depression. When she is struggling with discrimination against mothers or women at a sexist workplace, I have to be patient and listen.

I don't care if you're straight, bi, or gay, I would presume any man worth their salt would be, should be supportive of the women in their lives who go through any of those things.

 

[Irvine511]

Finally--and with all due acknowledgment of the fact that I know absolutely nothing about his wife or what his relationship with her is like--I cannot help wondering how she felt and what she thought when she read this:

It's so out of te Exodus "ex-gay" handbook it's painful.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't care if you're straight, bi, or gay, I would presume any man worth their salt would be, should be supportive of the women in their lives who go through any of those things.

For some, heterosexuality must be endured. Remember, we have 5,000 years of history to live up to.

 

[martha]

It's so out of te Exodus "ex-gay" handbook it's painful.

There is a special place in Hell for those people.