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Old 10-16-2012, 07:45 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
Ok, wanna talk nationalism? Let's talk nationalism. Let's boogie. The secret ballot (aka the Australian ballot) and compulsory voting. The US should adopt the latter. Clean out the stables. I rest my case.
That's what you'd rally the troops off to war to defend? OK
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:13 PM   #692
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nevermind. It's an endless cycle
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:46 PM   #693
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That's what you'd rally the troops off to war to defend? OK
Yeah. Ok.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:48 PM   #694
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Are you implying that gay men typically wear girl's clothes as boys? Seems sorta like stereotyping. No, I don't mind "tom girls" or boys that don't care for girls, it's the move towards gender-neutral child-rearing I think is crap. It will cause just as much harm, ill-prepare children for the real world, as the self-esteem movement has. IMO

I think your child will let you know if he wants to wear a dress or not.

But I see nothing wrong with telling little girls that they can grow up to be doctors if they want, and telling little boys that they can be nurses or kindergarten teachers if they want.

THAT my friend is gender neutral parenting.

What you're worried about is a fabrication of the right wing cash-for-paranoia industry.

And none of this has anything to do with Adam and Steve getting married.

If you think it does, my gosh, it's pretty self-evident that you're making up objections as you go. What's next -- letting two men get married projects weakness and that's why Assad murders his own people?

Get an argument.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:53 PM   #695
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As I've pointed out, all societies have and do define, limit and "decide who can and can't get married" based on numerous criteria. You seem to have a more libertarian (and consistent in my opinion) view of marriage but unless you're an anarchist you would discriminate against someone's "love" as well.
There are relationships I do not approve of being legal because they are abusive and there's no consent between the parties involved. There is a danger to one or both of the people involved. Those are logical reasons.

A gay couple who have been together for years, love each other, would be great parents, similar age, all that good stuff. Why do you think you have the right to stop those people from marrying? There is nothing harmful or dangerous about their relationship, so why do you think the laws should bar them from a legal marriage? Please answer that question.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:11 AM   #696
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This is not about hatred, please look the other way:

CNN's Carol Costello Kicks Bryan Fischer Off Show For Spewing Anti-Gay Hatred (VIDEO)
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:54 AM   #697
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A gay couple who have been together for years, love each other, would be great parents, similar age, all that good stuff. Why do you think you have the right to stop those people from marrying? There is nothing harmful or dangerous about their relationship, so why do you think the laws should bar them from a legal marriage? Please answer that question.
Because they don't fit what society should look like to those that are against gay marriage. They will spout off, despite studies showing otherwise, that the best relationship for a child is a mother/father.

Which is just an argument for those SSM that want to adopt. Then you ask what if two couples who are in love, want nothing to do with kids, why should they not marry?

And you'll get either a preference answer ("I think it's wrong/sick/etc"), or that it'll take away from the sanctity of marriage. Despite marriage already having an above 50% divorce rate. So "regular" marriage already has an issue.

There is no good reason why TWO consenting adults cannot get married if they so choose two. Other places around the world have allowed it, and their society still functions.

It's always come down to some people think it's gross or different. I think people who believe in an invisible sky God are delusional, but they have every right to believe or worship. I'm not going to try and stop them unless they try to govern their beliefs on me.

I have yet to run into a homosexual that has infringed on my rights
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:59 PM   #698
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The slanderous attack on freedom and liberty by the homosexual agenda continues

Federal Court in New York rules Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional | Gay Star News
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:26 AM   #699
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The slanderous attack on freedom and liberty by the homosexual agenda continues

Federal Court in New York rules Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional | Gay Star News


And by liberal activists judges legislating from the bench too! Appointed by Bush 1.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:38 PM   #700
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Make sure you watch until the end

Preacher gives interesting gay rights speech - YouTube
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:52 PM   #701
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Wow! And I was about to rant and rave about what he said at first!

Problem is, there are still a lot of people who are disgusted with interracial marriage, so his argument doesn't help even them.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:00 PM   #702
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Here's what he wrote in his blog

The last few hours have been a bit of a whirlwind for me, to say the least. I’m really heartened by all of the emails, Facebook messages, and kind words that I’ve received over the last 24 hours. As I read each one, I don’t see them simply as messages that seek to affirm a particular talk I gave on a particular night in Springfield, MO (as grateful as I am for such affirmations), but rather, I view them as a reflection of the thousands — indeed, the millions — of people who, on a daily basis, are journeying together because we believe that our world can be a better place, a fairer place, a more beautiful place — for all people and not just for some — and we won’t stop calling for a more beautiful world to be born. I’m also grateful for all of the people who have come before us — many whose names history won’t recall — who have allowed us to be where we are now, on whose shoulders we stand. These folks may not be famous — more times than not they are friends or family members who have bravely told their story, often in the face of major consequences. They are the ones who have brought us to this place, and we carry their stories with us as we try to build a a more just world.

In time I hope to respond to each email I receive, but at this point I simply can’t keep up with all of them. But please know how grateful I am to each of you. Here are a couple of things that consistently come up in the emails, so I thought I’d share some quick responses here:

A lot of people ask, “How can a pastor who values the Bible take this kind of stance?” Truth be told, there are a bunch of pastors and people of faith across the country who are open and affirming — not in spite of their faith, but precisely because of it. And the number of open and affirming people of faith is rapidly increasing. Brian McLaren offers the following perspective, which deeply resonates with my experiences as a pastor:

I inherited a theology that told me [that] homosexuality is a sin, so although we should not condemn (i.e. stone them), we must tell people to “go and sin no more.” Believe me, for many years as a pastor I tried to faithfully uphold this position, and sadly, I now feel that I unintentionally damaged many people in doing so. Thankfully, I had a long succession of friends who were gay. And then I had a long succession of parishioners come out to me. They endured my pronouncements. They listened and responded patiently as I brought up the famous six or seven Bible passages again and again. They didn’t break ranks with me and in fact showed amazing grace and patience to me when I was showing something much less to them.

Over time, I could not square their stories and experiences with the theology I had inherited. So I re-opened the issue, read a lot of books, re-studied the Scriptures, and eventually came to believe that just as the Western church had been wrong on slavery, wrong on colonialism, wrong on environmental plunder, wrong on subordinating women, wrong on segregation and apartheid (all of which it justified biblically) … we had been wrong on this issue. In this process, I did not reject the Bible. In fact, my love and reverence for the Bible increased when I became more aware of the hermeneutical assumptions on which many now-discredited traditional interpretations were based and defended. I was able to distinguish “what the Bible says” from “what this school of interpretation says the Bible says,” and that helped me in many ways.

So – many years before I learned I had members of my own close family who were gay – my view changed. As you can imagine, when this issue suddenly became a live issue in my own family, I was relieved that I was already in a place where I would not harm them as (I’m ashamed to say this) I had harmed some gay people (other people’s sons and daughters) earlier in my ministry.


Secondly, to the many of you who said, “I wish I lived in Springfield, because yours is a church I could actually attend!” Well, this kind of statement makes my day. We have tried to build a community of faith based on the intentional welcome of all people, especially those who have felt hurt and/or alienated by the church and/or Christianity. Every Sunday, we have a welcome statement that goes like this:

No matter who you are or where you are on life’s journey, you are welcome here:

If you are young or old, you are welcome

If you have brown skin, black skin, white skin, yellow skin or any color of skin, you are welcome

If you are married or single, you are welcome

If you are gay or straight, you are welcome

If you cannot hear or see, you are welcome

If you are sick or well, you are welcome

If you are a man or a woman, you are welcome

If you are happy or sad, you are welcome

If you are rich or poor, powerful or weak, you are welcome

If you believe in God some of the time or none of the time or all of the time, you are welcome here

I also want you to know that there are several churches around the US with a similar ethos. We may not be big churches or fancy churches, but we are there. We may listen to Stephen Colbert more than the pope, but we are there. We may not have a Starbucks in our building (we may not even have a building!), but we are there. So I encourage you to check out some of the communities of faith in your area — perhaps those that are part of the United Church of Christ (which is not the same thing as the Church of Christ), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), The Disciples of Christ, or perhaps the Episcopalian Church. While none are perfect by any stretch of the imagination (some of the churches aren’t very big, and often there aren’t very many young people), these denominations ordain openly gay clergy and tend to work toward equality for all people. As the United Church of Christ likes to say, “Our faith is 2,000 years old. Our thinking is not.” If you live in a particular area and want a suggestion on churches to perhaps visit, please feel free to send me a message, I’d be glad to help as I can.

Finally, a quick disclaimer related to my speech: I recognize that the discrimination experienced by African-Americans in the history of the United States has its own nuances and characteristics, so it’s important to highlight the different ways that discrimination functions in our society. With the great Cornel West, I believe that any form of discrimination and oppression (whether based on race, socioeconomic status, or sexual orientation) is problematic, and we should constantly work toward building a better world. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone who has experienced discrimination has experienced it in the same way (this is similar to bell hooks’ observation related to the film Crash, in which she mentioned that for all its strengths Crash didn’t adequately delve into the differences in race relations between a variety of different ethnic groups, and that the history of slavery in the US leads to experiences among African-Americans that are not necessarily the same as the experiences of, say, Muslims in America.) To be sure, all forms of discrimination are obviously problematic, and none are acceptable. But the experience of discrimination in the US is not a one-size-fits-all category, and the more we recognize the differences between various forms of discrimination the more we honor those who’ve experienced discrimination, and the better equipped we are to work toward building a better world that honors the integrity and dignity of all people.

My gratitude to each of you as we try to build a better world together, as we try to live into what Desmond Tutu once called the dreams of God for this world. Not for some people, but for all people.
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #703
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A Maryland Marriage Alliance panelist is feeling the heat in the blogosphere after implying that members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community (and their allies) are "worthy of death."
First reported by Good As You blogger Jeremy Hooper, the panelist -- identified as Robert Anderson of Maryland's Colonial Baptist Church --.declares, "If we don't vote against it, then we approving these things that are worthy of death."
He then goes on to note, "Not only are they on the wrong side of history, but they will be on the wrong side of eternity."


Quote:
As Hooper and Towleroad point out, the panel also includes Maryland Marriage Alliance head Derek McCoy, Austin Nimocks from the Alliance Defending Freedom and proclaimed 'ex-gay' Greg Quinlan.
Oh, an ex-gay. Talk about being brainwashed.

Very sad to read that article.

Maryland Marriage Alliance Panelist Implies LGBT Community And Allies Are 'Worthy Of Death'
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:15 PM   #704
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I love these terms they come up with. "Marriage Alliance" and "Defending Freedom"*. What, do they think they're in an action film or something? I have an image of them standing shoulder to shoulder, arms crossed, ready to do battle against the evil that is the horrible gay marriage monster, or something.

*still not sure how denying people equal rights means you're defending freedom, but whatever.

Anywho, "worthy of death", eh? Lovely. And we're supposed to be accepting and tolerant of these views...why, again?
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:06 PM   #705
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*still not sure how denying people equal rights means you're defending freedom, but whatever.
exactly. hey, someone wants to have a different opinion (even though i disagree with it and at times - but not all the time - the opinions can be offensive and homophobic), fine. i truly believe there's a lot of people out there who are against gay marriage "just because" - their parents, neighbours, pastor, etc. are against it so they are too. i'm not saying that's right or wrong.

aaaanyway. freedom of what, exactly? the whole point of this is to allow same sex couples to marry, which kinda is freedom. the freedom to allow two men or two women to get married, rather than just have to go to a courthouse and get a civil union and tell their friends they were....unionised? i don't even know. sounds painful. the "defending freedom" crap to me just seems like a curtain masking what it really is: "defending our rights to keep things like 1955."

nor have i ever heard a valid argument how this would ever destroy the sanctity of marriage. if marriage is really that sacred (not everyone is religious!), then divorce would be what's the real destroyer there. if bob and paul get married, it doesn't change sue and john's marriage at all. not even if bob and paul get married at the same damn venue.
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