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Old 10-10-2012, 02:45 PM   #646
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actually, people are not wrong

ideas, beliefs - now that's a different topic.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:47 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
The chances of him addressing a lot of the things I and others ask of him are pretty slim, but hey, I'll wait with you and see what happens.
Pardon me if I don't answer the same question for the umpteenth time. I've said over and over that process is important. You want to fracture the country even further then impose same-sex marriage on the country from the bench. It's been 40 years since Roe Vs Wade and abortion now is a party line/litmus issue. Is that good?

If SSM becomes legal through the consent of the governed then so be it. But not at the loss of political self-determination, the loss of religious freedom or the loss of free speech. We aren't Canada.

The intimidation, political bullying and rhetoric from politicians and SSM advocates related to recent events such as Chick-fil-A and the publishing of names and addresses of donors to causes opposed to SSM frankly scares the crap out of me. It's not only un-American but everything SSM supporters project on their opponents... it's borne of sheer hate.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:04 PM   #648
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I love how daring to criticize some aspect of a country is somehow equivalent to being "anti-American" nowadays. It isn't at all possible to love your country and appreciate its good points while still pointing out areas where it could do better-no, that invites shades of gray, and seeing both sides of something, and we can't have that.
You know what was not in my post?

Any suggestion that ours is a perfect country, a country with no failings or a country with no contradictory chapters in its history. That is read into it however because most here are only versed in the "areas where it could do better" and never learned, apparently, how to appreciate or defend "its good points."

It certainly explains how a Barack Obama can be elected president in the same country that reelected Ronald Reagan with 49 states less than 30 years ago.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:25 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by INDY500

Pardon me if I don't answer the same question for the umpteenth time. I've said over and over that process is important. You want to fracture the country even further then impose same-sex marriage on the country from the bench. It's been 40 years since Roe Vs Wade and abortion now is a party line/litmus issue. Is that good?

If SSM becomes legal through the consent of the governed then so be it. But not at the loss of political self-determination, the loss of religious freedom or the loss of free speech. We aren't Canada.

The intimidation, political bullying and rhetoric from politicians and SSM advocates related to recent events such as Chick-fil-A and the publishing of names and addresses of donors to causes opposed to SSM frankly scares the crap out of me. It's not only un-American but everything SSM supporters project on their opponents... it's borne of sheer hate.
This is fucking garbage Indy. So it's not right for you to lose the right to be a homophobe, but it's right for you to say to irvine that he is inferior and shouldn't be allowed to get married?
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:41 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Pardon me if I don't answer the same question for the umpteenth time. I've said over and over that process is important. You want to fracture the country even further then impose same-sex marriage on the country from the bench. It's been 40 years since Roe Vs Wade and abortion now is a party line/litmus issue. Is that good?
I said earlier that I personally don't care if legalization comes through either the people or the courts-whichever one legalizes it, or if both support it, that's fine by me. I definitely think the abortion issue has been horribly mishandled by political parties over the years, but that's another topic unto itself. I just ultimately think, be it through the people or through the courts, gay marriage should be legalized because of the whole "civil rights" thing and because it is the just, fair, logical thing to do. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever a gay couple should be denied the chance to be married to each other and have their marriage recognized by law.

And see, right there, we have an issue: your use of the word "impose". Judges declaring gay couples have the right to get married if they so wish does not equate to "forcing" something on the country at large (which, again, is becoming more and more supported by said country at large, so it's not like they're going up against a huge resistance here), which I'll explain below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
If SSM becomes legal through the consent of the governed then so be it. But not at the loss of political self-determination, the loss of religious freedom or the loss of free speech. We aren't Canada.
Except there's no indication any of that's going to happen here. Judges saying gay couples can get married doesn't mean that they're trying to force churches to marry gay couples whether they want to or not-again, that whole "separation of church and state" thing. It also doesn't mean that they're saying anti-gay marriage people can't continue to oppose it (though, really, the anti-gay marriage side really should just give it up because opposing such a thing is stupid, pointless, and they're going to lose in the end, and there's a zillion things MUCH more worthy of their concern than that anyway). Again, I live in a state that legalized gay marriage. None of what you worry about has happened here. Not one thing.


And I don't know about Canada and how the laws have changed since gay marriage became legal there-Canadians here can answer that better than I can, but it wouldn't surprise me if the anti-gay marriage side exaggerated that stuff. Basically, so far from what I understand it sounds like their complaints boil down to, "We can't go on being openly prejudiced and discriminating anymore", to which I say, "Tough. Why would you want to be that way?"

Someone can continue to be against gay marriage all they want, and say so, but I'm not really holding any sympathy for their views not being taken seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
The intimidation, political bullying and rhetoric from politicians and SSM advocates related to recent events such as Chick-fil-A and the publishing of names and addresses of donors to causes opposed to SSM frankly scares the crap out of me. It's not only un-American but everything SSM supporters project on their opponents... it's borne of sheer hate.
Fight fire with fire, I guess, that's about all I can explain that with.

And yes, imagine that, we hate the fact that people are being denied equal rights for the most absurd of reasons. The two things aren't comparable. Not even close.

(I'd also point out that while we here disagreed vehmently with Chick-Fil-A's stance on the gay marriage thing, we also agreed that they're a private company and can do what they wish.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
You know what was not in my post?

Any suggestion that ours is a perfect country, a country with no failings or a country with no contradictory chapters in its history. That is read into it however because most here are only versed in the "areas where it could do better" and never learned, apparently, how to appreciate or defend "its good points."
No, you just went on a massively glowing post about how our country is so much better than everyone else's, and insinuated that those of us who disagreed even slightly were "indoctrinated" and "anti-American".

We read your post exactly as you intended it.

And we'll gladly mention the country's good points when necessary. Heck, I think the "Feel good stories" thread alone is full of examples of America and its people at its best, and I can list my own personal examples of where I think this country gets it right. Just that since we are in a thread where many here think this is an area that America could improve its stance in, it kind of stands to reason that we're going to be a bit critical of how this country is handling this issue. If we were in a thread talking about the good things our country is doing or has done, we would be stating that sort of thing there.

Plus, people like to complain about anything. I complain, you complain, everyone complains. That's life. It doesn't mean, however, that we "haven't learned how to appreciate or defend" our country's good moments.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:44 PM   #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
It's been 40 years since Roe Vs Wade and abortion now is an issue with archaic, religious folk
fixed that for you

Quote:
We aren't Canada.
Damn straight. You're not so lucky
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:51 PM   #652
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Banning abortion is big government. So is banning gay marriage. Your party is supposed to be against big government.

Your party is really just against anything that isn't white, straight and religious.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:56 PM   #653
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And I don't know about Canada and how the laws have changed since gay marriage became legal there-Canadians here can answer that better than I can
You know what it changed? Absolutely nothing. Indy will try to tell you otherwise, but he lives in a fantasy world. Around 5% of our population is now treated as full fledged human beings, where in other countries they'd be treated as secondary. I can't stand misplaced patriotism, but I'm proud to live in a country dominated by modern, educated decisions
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:02 PM   #654
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I've said over and over that process is important.
This is horseshit and will be your line until the 'process' catches up to the modern world. Then you'll find something else to hide your bigotry behind
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:07 PM   #655
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Pardon me if I don't answer the same question for the umpteenth time. I've said over and over that process is important.
Pardon me, I haven't seen you up in arms over various ballot initiatives to overturn the legislative process. The referendum in Washington State being but one example.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:08 PM   #656
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P We aren't Canada.
It really is like you're proud of your ignorance.

You definitely aren't Canada. I know, because I've lived in both countries. Unlike you.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:10 PM   #657
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Funny how important 'process' and 'definition' become only when this topic comes up
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:17 PM   #658
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Speaking of WA state ...

I can't find a link to the ad itself, but Republican representative Maureen Walsh has an ad running now in support of SSM. It's heartening to see. And this is very touching.

Republican Chokes Up At Gay Marriage Debate In Washington - YouTube

Big thumbs up to Rep. Walsh.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:30 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
You know what it changed? Absolutely nothing. Indy will try to tell you otherwise, but he lives in a fantasy world. Around 5% of our population is now treated as full fledged human beings, where in other countries they'd be treated as secondary. I can't stand misplaced patriotism, but I'm proud to live in a country dominated by modern, educated decisions
Oh, yeah, I figured that. I just didn't know if there were any weird stories about some "attempt" at the sorts of things INDY fears happening somewhere that made the news up there or something.

EDIT:
Quote:
"How could I deny anyone the right to have that incredible bond with another individual in life? To me that seems almost cruel."
Exactly. I don't get how people still don't understand this. I also liked her bit about throwing a wedding for her daughter and her comment on calling them "domestic partnerships".

Good on you, Maureen Walsh.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:29 AM   #660
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Your party is really just against anything that isn't white, straight and religious.
And rich. Don't forget rich.
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