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Old 10-09-2012, 08:21 PM   #631
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An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.
Do you know what the word fact means? Because most your post was, for my money, opinion.

You seem rather indoctrinated, to me, but I would admit that as an opinion, not a fact. You also seem like the type of person who would call me indoctrinated with anti-Americanism, and then tell me that it is a fact, and not your opinion.

Again, my opinion, not a fact.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:29 PM   #632
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Depends on if they're educated or indoctrinated.

An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.

Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?



and you come across as shockingly indoctrinated in misguided patriotism and blind nationalism.

nowhere in that post is a factual, articulate defense of the values and successes of the US.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:37 PM   #633
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Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?
I love how daring to criticize some aspect of a country is somehow equivalent to being "anti-American" nowadays. It isn't at all possible to love your country and appreciate its good points while still pointing out areas where it could do better-no, that invites shades of gray, and seeing both sides of something, and we can't have that.

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It's not silly at all. Our constitution cultivated rule of law, limited government and Judeo-Christian values.
And as we all know, being Christian automatically means you have good intentions with anything you do. No wolves in sheep's clothing, or anything like that.

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The American Dream exists because our society, above all others, fosters a view of aspiration, rather than envy, towards success. We prosper because of that. We are freer because we value liberty over equality of outcome. We are more tolerant because we have been from the outset a nation of E Pluribus Unum.
As noted, there's plenty of countries that have similar things. I think it's fantastic that our country supports such beliefs and values (even if we don't always seem to practice what we preach), but we're not the only ones who are like that, nor are we even the first ones to come up with the concepts.

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Not when the American people support you. Our system is supposed to move with deliberation and consensus. That's only a problem when you're an imperial president trying to move "forward" while the majority of the country is yelling "stop!!"
Right, which explains why Obama's approval rating generally ranges from reasonably good to strong?

And again, he's come out in support of same sex marriage, and his views seem to be in line with a good portion of the country-as I noted, support for gay marriage is increasing, not decreasing. So I'm curious as to what majority this is you're referring to that's telling him to stop doing...something.

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The above response was too easy a retort. How about addressing this:
The chances of him addressing a lot of the things I and others ask of him are pretty slim, but hey, I'll wait with you and see what happens.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:41 PM   #634
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I love how daring to criticize some aspect of a country is somehow equivalent to being "anti-American" nowadays.
I really have to wonder how much INDY has travelled or if he's lived abroad at all because he really seems to operate on the assumption that most of the rest of the human race spends its days in some sort of anti-American madrasas.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:18 PM   #635
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My parents (avid Fox News watchers; seriously, I have no other idea where they got these crazy notions) reacted to the news that I was going to visit Ireland by myself (roughly) thusly:

".... but they're so anti-American in Europe right now! It's not safe to go!"

I had to stop myself from laughing. I'm pretty sure the mental image they had in their head were gangs of Europeans waiting on the tarmac with baseball bats, just biding their time until an American touched foot on the ground.

Naturally, now that they've heard all about my trip, they're thinking about going themselves.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:32 PM   #636
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I don't know, anitram. Seriously, I've never been outside the U.S. at all, but I'm pretty certain that most people in other parts of the world have no problem with our country or its people at large. They may question our policies, sure, but first off, last I checked that wasn't illegal-they're allowed to do that. And second, hell, we go around criticizing the policies of countries that are our allies day in and day out, so turnabout's fair play, I'd say.

And anyone who does automatically make negative stereotypes about this country and its people based on the actions of some would be an idiot, anyway.

Also, Cori, anytime you go to Ireland in the future, can I go with you ?

And meant to say earlier as well, the pictures you shared, MrsS? Thank you.

That is all .
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:24 AM   #637
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Which comes first, the constitution or the political culture? The answer is it's an interplay of the two, among other things. The soviet union and more than a couple of post-independence African republics had wonderful constitutions on paper... that didn't mean a thing.

As for American exceptionalism, ptah to that. The ideas that attended the birth of the US were part and parcel of the broader enlightenment ideals floating around Britain and France in that era. Without the bountiful accident of nature, the USA would be a more religious Australia. Conversely, without the political culture gifted by (particularly) eighteenth century post-glorious-revolution Britain, it might have ended up looking like Bolivar's version of a united states.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:35 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Depends on if they're educated or indoctrinated.

An educated person would not be threatened by facts -- would be able to articulate and defend the values and successes of his/her own country.

Those indoctrinated in cultural relativism and anti-Americanism... who cares?
What facts exactly are we talking about here? Because the post that was quoted before doesn't seem to have any.

Sorry bro, I'm not anti America, I'm just European and educated. And America is NOT the biggest player with amazing healthcare and freedom and tolerance. Your healthcare is pretty damn shitty, it's the worst of the entire western world. Many people don't have insurance because they can't afford it, and because so many people don't have it, it will never get affordable. People don't go to dentists or doctors anymore to save money. How the fuck is that greatest healthcare of all??

And tolerance? Don't make me laugh.

Please come live here for a year. You'll see what I mean.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:05 AM   #639
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Right, it only led to the most prosperous, tolerant and freest society... like, ever. The beacon of liberty, champion of free enterprise*, the sole superpower*, emancipator of slaves and Europe (twice), engine to scientific and technological innovation, beneficiary of the most advanced health care in the world*, home to more immigrants than the rest of the world combined and finally, the "last best hope of earth."

*pending results of 2012 election
It still staggers me how a person could actually say this.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:11 AM   #640
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Without the bountiful accident of nature, the USA would be a more religious Australia.
You say "accident." We say, "God knew what he was doing all along and populated this nearly perfect piece of land with naked people who had no guns so they'd be easy to get out of the way as well as provided a welfare-to-work program for 55m Africans, the strongest of whom were (eventually) given the greatest gift of all, which is American citizenship."

Lotsa facts there!
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:15 AM   #641
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You say "accident." We say, "God knew what he was doing all along and populated this nearly perfect piece of land with naked people who had no guns so they'd be easy to get out of the way as well as provided a welfare-to-work program for 55m Africans, the strongest of whom were (eventually) given the greatest gift of all, which is American citizenship."

Lotsa facts there!
Well now you're just being unconstitutional.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:17 AM   #642
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The Bible doesn't have an amendment process.
That's funny, I've been seeing you do it for years...
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:51 PM   #643
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if you guys don't agree that America is the best at everything ever, then you must hate America and everything it stands for.

that's how it works.
You forgot "so you can just giiiit out"
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:53 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by INDY500

Right, it only led to the most prosperous, tolerant and freest society... like, ever. The beacon of liberty, champion of free enterprise*, the sole superpower*, emancipator of slaves and Europe (twice), engine to scientific and technological innovation, beneficiary of the most advanced health care in the world*, home to more immigrants than the rest of the world combined and finally, the "last best hope of earth."

*pending results of 2012 election
You're what's wrong with America, but you're too ignorant and arrogant to realize it
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:34 PM   #645
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You're what's wrong with America, but you're too ignorant and arrogant to realize it

You're Canadian. Your opinion doesn't matter.
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