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Old 09-17-2012, 11:10 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
we could just call it marriage, like we always have, and let churches play the "no fags allowed" game if they so wish, because there's no law against being assholes no matter how you try to wrap it up in the ecstasy of sanctimony.

seems easier to me.
This is what I feel, too. Just that if people are insisting we do the civil union/marriage divide, the sort of idea yuppie mentioned is the one that would make the most sense if we were to do such a thing.

But yes, I agree, let's call it a marriage. Anyone who has a problem with that, well, guess they'll just have to learn to deal and get over their issues now, won't they?
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:22 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I suppose that is an important question in some regards - that is, whether non-religious people really care what the union is called. I can only speak for myself, but if I were to get "married," frankly I would not give a damn what it was called. If semantics can placate the religious right in exchange for real legal strides for gay people, I would call it a victory.

But when you are gay, you wonder why it is that people would go to such lengths to deny you -- YOU -- the use of that word.

Of course rights are what's real and tangible, but it says something awful about is if we'd go and invent something entirely new simply to make it easier to deny the use of the word. Why make it so complicated? Or is genuine equality really that scary? Why do we need to emphasize and underscore the differences between straight and gay?
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:43 PM   #483
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I'm a fan of letting the government handing out civil unions to whomever (as long as it is between two consenting adult humans... and I guess they probably mustn't be immediate relatives) and letting "marriage" be a purely cultural term with no government meaning. Let this debate continue as a cultural/religious/whatever one, let anyone who wants to call themselves married call themselves married, and people disapprove if they choose to (non-violently) disapprove. And don't make marriage necessarily require a civil union, or, of course, vice versa.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:01 PM   #484
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How would people feel about this, even if it has next to no possibility of ever happening: civil unions that carry all of the current legal and financial benefits of marriage are available to any two consenting adults. "Marriage" becomes a strictly religious institution that carries no legal force or benefits whatsoever - that is, the state only recognizes civil unions. This way, legal union equality is achieved, and the religious folks get to keep whatever traditional definition of marriage they feel so strongly about preserving.
I'd say it would work, though I'd love to see how the church will somehow find somethign wrong with this.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:47 PM   #485
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But when you are gay, you wonder why it is that people would go to such lengths to deny you -- YOU -- the use of that word.
But I think we do know why.

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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
How would people feel about this, even if it has next to no possibility of ever happening: civil unions that carry all of the current legal and financial benefits of marriage are available to any two consenting adults. "Marriage" becomes a strictly religious institution that carries no legal force or benefits whatsoever - that is, the state only recognizes civil unions. This way, legal union equality is achieved, and the religious folks get to keep whatever traditional definition of marriage they feel so strongly about preserving.
The truth is you would think conservatives and libertarians would actually get behind this. You know those folks that have sole ownership to the Constitutions intents and definitions...

You would think of all people that they would understand that the line of church and state is already being blurred by government getting involved with marriage in the first place.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:01 PM   #486
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But when you are gay, you wonder why it is that people would go to such lengths to deny you -- YOU -- the use of that word.

Of course rights are what's real and tangible, but it says something awful about is if we'd go and invent something entirely new simply to make it easier to deny the use of the word. Why make it so complicated? Or is genuine equality really that scary? Why do we need to emphasize and underscore the differences between straight and gay?
I understand and agree with everything you have said, but I guess my response would be that there is no practical way to legislate tolerance. What you can do is legislate equal rights and then wait for the tide to turn in favor of tolerance for same sex unions, as it already is in the process of doing.

If you remove the legal underpinning of marriage in favor of civil unions for everyone, then marriage becomes nothing more than a cultural relic. For me, the mystique of the term "marriage" is irrelevant, but then again I am not romantic or religious in any way. You seem to be saying that the terminology of the union would be important to you - do I have that right? I'm just genuinely curious.
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:47 PM   #487
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i think the discussion these past few posts have demonstrated that incest has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality.
Other than the fact that, until this generation, both have been excluded from marriage by all cultures, religions and governments.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:05 PM   #488
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I believe I answered. I'll try again:
You'll have to be specific about which part of your post. Orientation? I accept that homosexuals are born with a sexual orientation towards the same sex. But one, orientation and behavior are two different things. Two, it still doesn't preclude society from deeming, to be in its best interest, the promotion of stable marriage between a man and a woman.

The Bible reference? Yes you can find instances of incest and polygamy in the Bible. Always involving a man and woman however. My point has never been that marriage laws and customs don't change. Only that the process matters. In a republic the morals and values of the citizens should be reflected in the laws. And in a democracy laws should be enacted with the consent of the governed, i.e. not by judges overturning the will of the people.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:06 PM   #489
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Other than the fact that, until this generation, both have been excluded from marriage by all cultures, religions and governments.
This is false, and I know that you SHOULD know better.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:10 PM   #490
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There's a senate inquiry going on here right now, and so far we've had one man suggest it will lead to bestiality being legalised, one woman suggest it will lead to another stolen generation of children as they are forced out of straight homes and into gay ones, and one man say "if a boy has two mothers, who's gonna teach him to kick a football? Take him fishing? It's against nature!"

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But one, orientation and behavior are two different things.
How can you say you're not homophobic and then say this? "I know you feel attracted to someone of the same sex, but control your devilish urges for God's sake!"
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:13 PM   #491
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Other than the fact that, until this generation, both have been excluded from marriage by all cultures, religions and governments.
You don't know that. As a matter of fact, historians can't even agree on that. There is evidence of same sex marriages in ancient Rome and Egypt. It wasn't until around 340 AD that same sex marriage was outlawed in Rome and made punishable by death . Hmmm, I wonder what that roughly coincided with
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:17 PM   #492
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Two, it still doesn't preclude society from deeming, to be in its best interest, the promotion of stable marriage between a man and a woman.
You're welcome to state why it would be in society's best interest...

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The Bible reference? Yes you can find instances of incest and polygamy in the Bible. Always involving a man and woman however.
oooooooh! It's in the bible?!?! Why didn't you say so earlier? You've successfully converted me.
(Hilarious that you're supporting incest in the bible because it involved a man and a women. Again, statements like this completely reveal your bigotry and blind acceptance of the crap in the bible)

Quote:
My point has never been that marriage laws and customs don't change. Only that the process matters. In a republic the morals and values of the citizens should be reflected in the laws.
So you've admitted that you think homosexuality is immoral. Your opinion is tainted and subjective
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:24 PM   #493
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society as a whole is the better for it.
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And comments like this betray your deep seated bigotry
Comments like that betray your deep seated misanthropy.

So every culture and religion that has banned marriage between members of the same sex all these thousands of years did so, not because they thought "society as a whole the better for it," no, only because they were bigoted and ignorant. Like me.

Well bite me!!
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:34 PM   #494
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Comments like that betray your deep seated misanthropy.

So every culture and religion that has banned marriage between members of the same sex all these thousands of years did so, not because they thought "society as a whole the better for it," no, only because they were bigoted and ignorant. Like me.

Well bite me!!


Not "every culture and religion" has banned members of the same sex from marrying. In case you didn't put the connection together, same sex marriage was outlawed in Rome about 40 years after the Edict of Milan and less than a decade after Constantine became the first Roman Emperor to be baptized. It's your bigoted and ignorant bible that implemented the bannings and executions. But to you, that's as far back as history goes
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:14 PM   #495
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Other than the fact that, until this generation, both have been excluded from marriage by all cultures, religions and governments.
As others have mentioned, there is evidence that SSM took place in ancient Rome. I believe some Native American tribes allowed it too.

As for incest, it is well known that the Egyptian pharoahs practiced it to maintain their bloodline, with dire consequences of course. King Tut's parents were brother and sister and he was physically stricken as a result. He was also married to his half-sister and they struggled to have children.
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