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Old 09-17-2012, 08:57 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
I'll ask again, what if the incest is homosexual in nature? No fear of inbreeding and their orientation can't be denied anymore than other homosexuals can it?
I believe I answered. I'll try again:

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To me there are couple of keys to differentiating other types of sexual relationships fro homosexuality.

The first is Consent. This should be the first rule of all sexual relationships--mutual consent between adults period. Anything that doesn't fall under that is out of bounds. Anything that does fall under that is all the government should really be concerned about when recognizing the legitimacy of relationships. Homosexual relationships involve consenting adults--incest and polygamous relationships, which are the favorite bugaboos of the slippery slope folk often do not.

Secondly is the issue of Orientation. Relationships between relatives and between more than one person are not issues of a person's identity, or their sexual orientation. The idea that one need not--and should not--act on every attraction they feel towards another person is something that both homosexuals and heterosexuals can understand. For example when a person is in a committed relationship whether gay or straight, and he or she feels an intense attraction to another person he or she can--and should--choose to remain faithful to their partner. This choice does not compromise that person's identity in any way, nor does it shut them off from the possibility of a meaningful relationship--after all they are IN one.

But sexual orientation is not a choice, and many opponents of SSM even concede this point. Of course, as soon as they concede the point, the fight is already over. There is no legitimate argument against SSM once you concede that homosexuality is an orientation and not a lifestyle choice. Indeed, all the comparisons to incest, polygamy etc inherently assume that homosexuality is a choice one can take or leave in much the way that one can take or leave a second or third wife, a sexual relationship with a sibling or whatever else.

In regards to incest and polygamy, Christians in particular don't have much of a leg to stand on in using those as proof of the slippery slope, as both practices were part of the lives of several key Biblical "role models" if you will including Abraham and Jacob (polygamy and incest) and Solomon and David (polygamy) and Ruth and Boaz (incest). I realize these practices are frowned upon in our culture today and with good reason, but this is not the strongest foundation for attacking homosexuality. Marrying close relatives or having more than one wife were cultural practices that were once acceptable and no longer are, that's all.

I think very strong arguments can be made about the damage that can be done as incestuous relationships get closer in relation. Cousins, maybe not so much a big deal--just culturally frowned upon, brother and sisters increasingly problematic, and parent and child downright dangerous. But as has been pointed out, that's probably for another thread.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:21 PM   #452
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I actually did some research. Now it's your turn. Reread my post and please direct me to a website that contradicts what I said. I certainly don't wish to disseminate any false information, especially when it comes to genetics or medical science.

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I'll just throw out a blanket answer here. Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.

1) Prohibitions on incestuous marriages are thousands of years old predating any possible understanding of genetics.
It doesn't take an understanding of genetics to be able to make the cause and effect connection to birth defects. You don't have to understand the mechanics of why something happens to know that it happens. Not to mention the fact that millions of years of evolution have ingrained an innate aversion to inbreeding much to the benefit of our genetic variation

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2) Effects of inbreeding take generations to appear in humans being statistically no more common than birth defects in children of older mothers. Do we prohibit them from marrying, having children? Chromosomal abnormalities such as trisomy would be up to twice as high in brother-sister marriages but don't explain restrictions on 2nd cousin/2nd cousin or uncle/niece marriages. Do we prohibit adults with Down Syndrome from marrying and having children although there is a 50% chance a child born to a mother with DS will have DS?
Where are you getting the information that effects of inbreeding take generations to appear? That is completely false and lacks even the most basic knowledge of genetics. Effects can be seen as early as the first generation offspring. Your comparisons to older women and people with Downs Syndrome is shameful, but not out of character. I assume eugenics is part of your forthcoming, obligatory slippery slope argument?

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3) It isn't 1600 anymore. Most trisomy affected fetuses miscarriage or, after an amniocentesis diagnosis, can and are aborted.
Ya, because the only effect of inbreeding is Down Syndrome (By the way, you seem to think that inbreeding creates Down Syndrome. Ridiculous). There are countless underlying, harmful genetic disorders exasperated by inbreeding. And like you mentioned yourself, sometimes* those effects are only expressed in later generations. So this argument is worthless.

*My very important distinction from your uninformed crap

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3) Birth defects are of no concern if two brothers wish to marry, why restrict them?

4) What happened to equal protection?

5) We know we can't use religious arguments from old books against incestuous marriages anymore. Debating from wisdom or tradition doesn't spin the world forward it only protects the status quo. So I guess, like same-sex marriage, the only argument is the yuck factor right?

6) The only way my comments can be misconstrued as hurtful to gays or supporters of SSM is if they're forced to acknowledge they don't believe in the right to marry "no matter who you love" any more than I do. That's my only point.
I'll lump all this diarrhea together. If you want to use homosexuality and equality as some sort of yard stick, then it makes complete sense that if the rest of the population aren't able to marry their close relatives, then the homosexual brothers should be treated as equal and denied that too. What a completely lazy and ill-conceived argument
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:34 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by INDY500
I'll ask again, what if the incest is homosexual in nature? No fear of inbreeding and their orientation can't be denied anymore than other homosexuals can it?

Could your propose an alternate, separate but equal set of rights that you think an incestuous couple should be able to have legal access to? And why do you think this should be distinct from non-incestuous relationships?
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:42 PM   #454
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If there must be an incest thread, I hope a distinction is drawn between siblings and parents, and cousins. Cousins may be frowned on nowadays but if it were lethal, the human species would have died out long ago.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:48 PM   #455
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I've given up.

When people speak of "marry who you love" it's an attempt to explain that gay people love their spouses and partners just like straight people love their spouses and partners.

Some people take this to mean that it's the same thing as incest. What can you do?
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:51 PM   #456
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So, if we all believe in some restrictions (demarcation lines) on the practice on marriage because, even though unfair to certain individuals, society as a whole is the better for it.
This then begs the (huge, glaring) question: how is society better off by denying homosexuals access to marriage? Or to put it another way, how would society be worse off by allowing it? Some sort of specifics would seem to be called for here.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:56 PM   #457
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We know we can't use religious arguments from old books against incestuous marriages anymore. Debating from wisdom or tradition doesn't spin the world forward it only protects the status quo.
Considering that your old book, by virtue of a simplistic origins story, at least indirectly supports incest, it's hardly a good idea to bring it up. Also, it's the lack of wisdom in that same book that tries to keep the world from spinning forward
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:58 PM   #458
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I've given up.

When people speak of "marry who you love" it's an attempt to explain that gay people love their spouses and partners just like straight people love their spouses and partners.

Some people take this to mean that it's the same thing as incest. What can you do?
Well, depending on who was paying the monk to interpret the dead language "marry who you love" was originally written in, it could mean either... oh wait, that's not an issue most reasonable, free thinking adults have, is it?
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:05 PM   #459
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Personally, I am disturbed that there are some people who are OK with consensual incest. Forget about genetics, there are psychological and emotional reasons for incest to not be accepted by society at all.

I've been doing some research and from what I've found, siblings who "fall in love" come from dysfunctional families and desperate to feel safe with someone - hence why they turn to siblings close in age, if they exist. There is no way for siblings from healthy families to develop romantic feelings for each other.

Plus, what if they do want to have children together? They so firmly believe their love is like anyone else's and they would want kids together. They would have to be forced sterilized to prevent any inbreeding and that could stir up a whole human rights problem.

Now some would say, well no family is ever perfect, what's wrong with love, etc. I don't think its takes much thinking to realize that consensual incest would hurt society. If two siblings want to be with each other and only each other, they are not participating in society very well. They are not developing away from their family and they are being more diverse in their interaction with society. I would largely guess anyone who develops feelings for a family member has a fear of intimacy with a non-relative, or is unable to have such feelings, thus they end up committing incest. I'm no psychologist, but I'm sure many in the mental health field would agree a healthy individual is someone who is able to form strong relationships with non-relatives.

Also, keep in mind animals do not commit consensual incest. They may be forced to breed to keep a dying specie going, but that's it.

I just find it very disturbing that some are having a laissez faire attitude to love and sexuality. Its taking the gray area to whole new level that does no good for civilization as a whole. To say, "who am I to tell someone what to do with their lives?" says to me that someone has a big case of apathy, or is not seeing the big picture.

I may sound harsh here, but I am deeply bothered.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:11 PM   #460
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There is no way for siblings from healthy families to develop romantic feelings for each other.
This sounds far too absolute to be true
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:14 PM   #461
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This sounds far too absolute to be true
I really don't see how siblings who've had a good and healthy upbringing would end up falling in love with each other. If you know of a good example, please post it here.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:14 PM   #462
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The birth defects thing doesn't stick with me necessarily simply because there are non-incestuous relationships where birth defects occur, too. It may be more likely in incestuous relationships, and I fully understand the argument people are making, and certainly it's great and preferable for all involved if a child can be born healthy, but at the same time, I hesitate to decide to start automatically determining relationships based on the potential for their children to have birth defects. I just think that could lead to some potentially iffy situations in general. If that makes sense.

You are correct that most of those kinds of relationships have some sort of psychological abuse involved and there's some other deep-seeded problems there. Which is why generally it's frowned upon, because of the potential for abuse and whatnot that's been alluded to here. And that's why I would not personally be a supporter of such relationships.

But ultimately, at the same time, if there is actual legit consent involved, I can't stop consenting adults from doing what they please, and that's ultimately why I come down on the issue as I do. It's their problem to work out, I guess. If there is evidence of abuse, then yes, one must put a stop to the relationship-but I would say that no matter what the relationship was.

And in no way, shape, or form is it even remotely comparable to homosexuality. That much is absolutely certain. It really is insane that we are even having such a discussion in this thread.

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I really don't expect an answer to this, but how exactly would society be better if you kept gay people from marrying? And comments like this betray your deep seated bigotry
Yeah, I'll be surprised if we get a legitimate answer to anything being discussed here. There's been plenty of eloquent, well-argued posts and questions posed here and yet they seem to be just totally skipped over and barely, if at all, acknowledged.

Which makes me wonder, why even bother anymore, but eh.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:21 PM   #463
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But ultimately, at the same time, if there is actual legit consent involved, I can't stop consenting adults from doing what they please. It's their problem to work out, I guess. If there is evidence of abuse, then yes, we must put a stop to the relationship-but I would say that no matter what the relationship was.

But what if they don't realize its a problem? What if both are so whacked in the head, they fail to realize how unhealthy their relationship is? If I knew someone was committing incest and saw nothing wrong with it, I would do what I can to get that person help.

Its kind of like being a hermit. You and your family member stay together and never experience a connection with a non-relative. How would you function in society?
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:22 PM   #464
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I don't think its takes much thinking to realize that consensual incest would hurt society. If two siblings want to be with each other and only each other, they are not participating in society very well. They are not developing away from their family and they are being more diverse in their interaction with society.
Then we would also have to legislate against shy people, shut ins, and hermits. Not a very strong argument

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I would largely guess anyone who develops feelings for a family member has a fear of intimacy with a non-relative, or is unable to have such feelings, thus they end up committing incest. I'm no psychologist, but I'm sure many in the mental health field would agree a healthy individual is someone who is able to form strong relationships with non-relatives.
Restricting them from the relationship would not alleviate any social disorders.

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Also, keep in mind animals do not commit consensual incest. They may be forced to breed to keep a dying specie going, but that's it.
This just simply isn't true. Lions will occasionally breed incestuously. I'm sure there are other instances

I'm not disagreeing with your general sentiment, I just think these arguments are weak
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:23 PM   #465
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I really don't see how siblings who've had a good and healthy upbringing would end up falling in love with each other. If you know of a good example, please post it here.
Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it will never happen. Would it be unusual? I would assume so. But it's far more complicated than to be able to say "it will never happen"
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