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Old 08-17-2012, 10:24 PM   #301
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As a matter of fact, I supported "No on 8."

I supported it because of my boss and his partner of 20+ years. I supported it because of my friends Heather and Tere who have been married for 10 years and are trying to make it work. I supported it because of every gay kid who's ever been bullied at school. I supported it because of all the dickheads who called me "fag" in high school. I supported it because of my friend Dave who committed suicide as a freshman rather than put up with the harassment, and my friend Brian who spent his entire high school experience in the closet. I supported it because of all the ignoramuses who have tried to co-opt the God I believe in and reduce Him to what they think is right.

But at the same time, I was damn conflicted. I was conflicted because of people who look down their self-righteous nose and snivel at everyone who doesn't agree with them. I was conflicted because of people who can't fathom anyone who thinks differently and who might want to live out their Constitutionally-protected right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion without being harassed or berated or mocked or stalked or derided. I was conflicted because I can't label who thinks differently from me a "hater."

I argue contrary points on this board sometimes. I do it because we're supposed to think different. I do it because we're supposed to empathize with the person on the other side of the table. I do it because we're supposed to see through someone else's eyes, not just our own. I do it because I hate group-think with a passion. I do it because the truth is more complicated than we like it to be. I do it because I like straddling the fence and trying to figure out how to bring people together.

Does that satisfy you? Or should I be smoother about it?

I understand a bit more, but I find it difficult to fence-sit about issues like this one.

I'll leave you alone.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:24 PM   #302
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In other words, "Keep quite or we can make things very difficult for you." Very recent cases in point:

1) Dan Savage's very public humiliation of Bible reading teenagers in front of their peers from his podium.

2) The totalitarian pronouncements regarding Chick-fil-a as a business entity in their cities from the mayors of Chicago, San Francisco and Boston.

3) The treatment of Mark Regnerus, who never argued against SSM in his research -- only dared to point out the flaws in earlier studies declaring children of gay couple to have equal or superior outcomes. Regnerus and the 'Liberal War on Science'

Two hundred academics have since issued a statement denouncing the study. Four colleagues on the sociology faculty at the University of Texas released their own statement at the HuffPost. "Pseudo-science that demonizes gay and lesbian families contributes to stress and is not good for children." A gay-rights activist has filed an ethics complaint requiring Regnerus to get a lawyer. Note to future social science researchers; "Incorrect" conclusions will not be tolerated. Design your studies appropriately.

4) Gay marriage activists in Maryland bully traditional marriage supporters - Baltimore County Republican | Examiner.com
The gays are bullying the straights? That's the argument you want to put up?
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:30 PM   #303
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I don't think I intentionally come into a debate with the means to attack people. Sometimes I get carried away and get out of line, but overall I think I try my best to be civil.

Sometimes, things do get out of hand in FYM because we're discussing issues that have emotional ties to some people. That, or because all we see are words on a computer screen and not the actual people we are conversing with.

As for Nathan, I want to say to him that if I did sound like a bully to you, I apologize. I really did think you were avoiding my question, though. But I've never held anything against you and always liked your input in FYM. Also, your post where you explained your views made sense and I liked your honesty, which I don't think is easy to do on a public internet forum.

Finally, I would like to nominate Sean as the diplomat of FYM. Count on him for being the best at trying to calm the storms here!
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:32 PM   #304
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That's consistent.


Care to elaborate?


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In that case, your interpretation of what happened in the thread is radically different to mine.
There were several things that happened in the thread. I was referring to the exchange between BVS and Philsfan. I've already stated how I felt about the pile-on Nathan.


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Isn't railroading a euphemism for bullying?
Yes. More than a euphemism, it is a synonym. I question whether there is an effort to bully certain people out of the thread. I'm not saying that bullying never happens, I am saying that I doubt it is part of an organized attempt to get rid of people on the forum.



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I think there is strong evidence that, actually, quite a few on your side don't.
Some people disagree with a fair amount vitriol. I don't think that means they are trying to get rid of people. Indeed, you have been rather vitriolic in some of your interactions with me from time to time. I have not appreciated that, but I've neither taken that as an indication that you're trying to force me out of the forum.

Granted, if a lot of people were to be that way towards me I guess I could understand how one might draw that conclusion though.

Still, some posters seem to rather enjoy tweaking the noses of all us earnest liberals in here, so to be honest, I don't feel as bad when people respond with impatience and irritation. I don't find those kinds of "opposing viewpoints" particularly enriching. It's a different story with nathan1977, who was not dropping Limbaugh-like bombs just to watch the lefties get all twitchy.


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But, instinctively, and leaving aside for the moment, specific points of view - and you're welcome, naturally, to disagree with this - I'd suggest that debate and argument - even at times, caustic debate - is more healthy than fake consensus, which if you don't mind my pointing out, seems to me to be the current mood of the FYM forum.
I don't disagree actually. As I said above, caustic commentary comes with the territory and isn't necessarily bad. I think debate and argument are more productive when it's conducted with mutual respect and courtesy. I don't think that has to mean false consensus though.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:45 PM   #305
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It blows my mind that people can debate and argue over me and my life and my live.

And people wonder why gay kids kill themselves.

You would be hard pressed to find someone more fortunate than I. I know this, I am thankful every day that so much has been given to me.

And still, a thread like this makes me question my own self worth and wonder what it is about me that is so subject to question.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:51 PM   #306
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It blows my mind as well.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:56 PM   #307
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It blows my mind that people can debate and argue over me and my life and my live.

And people wonder why gay kids kill themselves.

You would be hard pressed to find someone more fortunate than I. I know this, I am thankful every day that so much has been given to me.

And still, a thread like this makes me question my own self worth and wonder what it is about me that is so subject to question.
And I feel sorry for you. I don't know how you can go through FYM or anywhere else online and see anti-gay comments without feeling terrible about yourself. I can't imagine what goes through your mind.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:57 PM   #308
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It blows my mind that people can debate and argue over me and my life and my live.

And people wonder why gay kids kill themselves.

You would be hard pressed to find someone more fortunate than I. I know this, I am thankful every day that so much has been given to me.

And still, a thread like this makes me question my own self worth and wonder what it is about me that is so subject to question.
You've expressed eloquently what I'm realizing is one of the key differences between racial prejudice (which I've experienced my share of throughout my life--when my wife, who is white, and I got married it was especially painful as expressions of disapproval came unexpectedly from people we thought were our friends, and from both blacks and whites) and the discrimination you have faced.

In the case of racism, it's just a statement that "I don't like blacks", not a statement about my moral value.

In the case of homophobia, it's not just a statement of dislike but a statement that the person is fundamentally wrong or bad.

To me the latter can be much worse.

Irvine, I know it's easy for people to treat this issue carelessly when it doesn't affect us in the way that it does you. Forgive me if I've been cavalier in any way about this. I try to ever conscious that for you this is not just "Topic for Debate", it is your life. Indeed, I've been impressed with the patience you've shown considering that.
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:08 PM   #309
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When you are black, or Jewish, or Asian ... chances are, so is your family.

When you are gay, usually, you are on your own.
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:27 PM   #310
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When you are black, or Jewish, or Asian ... chances are, so is your family.

When you are gay, usually, you are on your own.
Another key difference. . .

And when you try to make a family of your own . . .

Take heart though, my friend. The tide is shifting irrevocably. In truth it really is all over but the shouting, and I believe that we will see marriage equality in our life time, and not just at the civil level but in religious institutions as well, even conservative ones.

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:30 PM   #311
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My cousin just posted this quote on Facebook. I thought it was appropriate here:

"Every society has its protectors of status quo and its fraternities of the indifferent who are notorious for sleeping through revolutions. Today, our very survival depends on our ability to stay awake, to adjust to new ideas, to remain vigilant and to face the challenge of change.”
~ Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:32 PM   #312
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I don't want to come across as self-pitying. Thought it might seem that way.

I don't lean up against a window and watch the rain and sigh, "I wish I was married."

But when someone identifies me as a threat, as someone who must be resisted, as someone who is despised and seen as a representative of something thatbjust be resisted and, aboe all, someone we don't want our children -- for God's sake, think of the children -- to become, how can you not take it personally?

I'm a nice person. I have done nothing to center myself in the midst of a social debate about "values." And neither has any other gay person.
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:37 PM   #313
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I don't want to come across as self-pitying. Thought it might seem that way.

I don't lean up against a window and watch the rain and sigh, "I wish I was married."
You don't come across that way as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:58 PM   #314
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Dana Milbank: Hateful speech on hate groups - The Washington Post

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By Dana Milbank, Published: August 16The Washington Post (edited by Indy500)

Human Rights Campaign, the nation’s largest gay rights organization, posted an alert on its blog Tuesday: “Paul Ryan Speaking at Hate Group’s Annual Conference.”

The “hate group” that the Republicans’ vice presidential candidate would be addressing? The Family Research Council, a mainstream conservative think tank founded by James Dobson and run for many years by Gary Bauer.

The day after the gay rights group’s alert went out, 28-year-old Floyd Lee Corkins II walked into the Family Research Council’s Washington headquarters and, according to an FBI affidavit, proclaimed words to the effect of “I don’t like your politics” — and shot the security guard. Corkins, who had recently volunteered at a gay community center, was carrying a 9mm handgun, a box of ammunition and a backpack full of Chick-fil-A — the company whose president recently spoke out against gay marriage.

Human Rights Campaign isn’t responsible for the shooting. Neither should the organization that deemed the FRC a “hate group,” the Southern Poverty Law Center, be blamed for a madman’s act. But both are reckless in labeling as a “hate group” a policy shop that advocates for a full range of conservative Christian positions, on issues from stem cells to euthanasia.

disagree with the Family Research Council’s views on gays and lesbians. But it’s absurd to put the group, as the law center does, in the same category as Aryan Nations, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Stormfront and the Westboro Baptist Church. The center says the FRC “often makes false claims about the LGBT community based on discredited research and junk science.” Exhibit A in its dossier is a quote by an FRC official from 1999 (!) saying that “gaining access to children has been a long-term goal of the homosexual movement.”


I took issue with Glenn Beck before his fall for stirring up the unstable by promoting conspiracy theories in the mass media; more than one Beck follower became violent. What the Southern Poverty Law Center and Human Rights Campaign have done isn’t close to the level of provocation Beck achieved, but that doesn’t justify their actions. The National Organization for Marriage, which opposes gay marriage, is right to say that the attack “is the clearest sign we’ve seen that labeling pro-marriage groups as ‘hateful’ must end.”

Gays and lesbians are winning the fight for equality by example and persuasion. Those who support gay rights will gain nothing by sticking inflammatory labels on their opponents, many of whom are driven by deeply held religious beliefs.
Which leads me to go back 5 or 6 years to my first posts on this subject. My mind hasn't been changed in that time and I never expected to change anyone else's mind. I'm just questioning SSM supporter's tactics, rhetoric and failure to recognize civil disagreement in a free society.
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Old 08-18-2012, 12:01 AM   #315
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Opposing SSM does not qualify one as a hate group.

But the malicious, vicious lies the Frc spreads about the GLBT community absolutely does qualify them as a hate group.

Milbank got this wrong.

INDY your mind hasn't been changed ecause you see this as a issue of personal identity and where you fall in the culture wars.

It's hard to view an attack on one's existence as just another viewpoint or disagreement.
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