Same Sex Marriage Thread-Part 2 - Page 19 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-17-2012, 06:33 PM   #271
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 04:02 PM
I don't get how marriage can be considered to be strictly a religious institution when

1. Not everyone who gets married is religious-in any way that anyone defines what it means to be religious. I believe in defining that for yourself, that no one else can define that for you.

2. Not everyone who gets married is married in a place of religious worship, by a minister, rabbi, etc, in a religious ceremony. Someone who is legally authorized can just declare you legally married when you stand in front of them.

I consider myself to be a religious person, in the ways that I define that. But I don't define marriage as being strictly a religious institution. That somehow excludes people who believe differently than I do. If you do define it that way don't you have to then say that anyone married under other circumstances somehow has a different or less than marriage?
__________________

__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 06:36 PM   #272
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by irvine511 View Post
but what i don't understand is how the existence of gay people or the existence of ssm is somehow a violation of someone else's right to exercise their religion as they see fit.
ZOMG READ THE BIBLEZ

And why does Interference keep screwing with my caps on that hilarious joke? (ah...there it goes.)
__________________

__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 06:39 PM   #273
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The problem is that the truth, from which we can extrapolate logic and reasoning, is a much slippier thing these days. Pick an issue, and there are lobbyists, advocates and activists on both sides eager to couch their belief as fact, and fund studies to prove that it is so. But when the facts are debatable, negligible and available to the highest bidder, how then are we left to reason?
Oh, I completely agree. We spend a lot of time and resources to make the facts say what we want them to, that's why the more information the better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
For me, the primary issues underlying this debate are principles. How do we, as a secular nation, follow through on our commitment to the principle that all men are created equal, and subject to equal representation under the law? And how do we, as a secular nation, provide for the safe, free practice of all religious people? And how do we hold both those principles true at the same time, without sacrificing either, particularly when the government has muddied the water by gotten into the business of blessing marriage (a religious institution)?
I think this is pretty easy. There are churches today that will not marry a black man to a white woman. There are churches today that will not recognise these unions, but guess what? They are legal.

Have those churches been denied free safe practice?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 08-17-2012, 06:40 PM   #274
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
ZOMG READ THE BIBLEZ

And why does Interference keep screwing with my caps on that hilarious joke? (ah...there it goes.)


i do mean that as a serious question. all sorts of things the US government does violates people's religious principles. why is SSM (and as we saw earlier this year, birth control) somehow exceptional cases that become liberty violations?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 08-17-2012, 06:55 PM   #275
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
And how do we, as a secular nation, provide for the safe, free practice of all religious people? And how do we hold both those principles true at the same time, without sacrificing either, particularly when the government has muddied the water by gotten into the business of blessing marriage (a religious institution)?
I also don't see how SSM will violate the freedom of religion in this country. Allowing two men or two women to marry won't suddenly close down houses of worship, ban adherents to wear religious symbols around their necks, stop people from saying grace at the dinner table, and so on. No one is forcing religious institutions to perform gay marriage ceremonies. It is only when that happens, then the argument over freedom of religion would make sense.

Also, your last sentence makes me wonder: if two atheists - a man and a woman - were to marry, are they really married? After all, they don't believe in God or religion, so is their union a sham?
__________________
Pearl is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 06:56 PM   #276
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 09:02 PM
I can't comment on churches that don't endorse biracial marriages.

However, this NPR report was a fair-handed description of two principles -- equal representation under the law, freedom of religion -- in conflict.

Gay Rights, Religious Liberties: A Three-Act Story : NPR

As far as the religious connotation of marriage...the vast majority of weddings take place in, well, a church. For some that might be a purely superficial connection; for many, not so much.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:03 PM   #277
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,335
Local Time: 01:02 PM
Nathan, you're dodging yet again. You always dodge the racial issues. Did you answer her question about atheists?
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:14 PM   #278
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martha View Post
Nathan, you're dodging yet again. You always dodge the racial issues. Did you answer her question about atheists?
I'm not dodging anything. (Though I'm confused by your post -- am I dodging racial issues or atheist ones? You seem to be accusing me of both.) As I said, the simple fact that most marriage ceremonies take place in a church provides a religious context for the ceremony in question. For some people it's a superficial connection at best; for many, it's deeper than that.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:23 PM   #279
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post

As far as the religious connotation of marriage...the vast majority of weddings take place in, well, a church. For some that might be a purely superficial connection; for many, not so much.
Connotation is different than institution

I don't know what the statistics are- but vast majority, if that's true, still doesn't equal all. So it's not strictly a religious institution. Questioning that doesn't mean that I think that is a "superficial" connection. The difference is perhaps that I see that as a personal thing so I recognize that it's not the same for everyone. The fact that anyone else in this world doesn't see marriage as a religious institution doesn't change how I see it one iota. Doesn't "threaten" how I see it in any way, shape, or form.

And obviously they are not all taking place in a church, there are other religious places of worship.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:27 PM   #280
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,335
Local Time: 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
I'm not dodging anything. (Though I'm confused by your post -- am I dodging racial issues or atheist ones? You seem to be accusing me of both.) As I said, the simple fact that most marriages ceremonies take place in a church provides a religious context for the ceremony in question. For some people it's superficial; for many, it's deeper than that.
I am accusing you of both dodges. You consistently refuse to address any racial issues where marriage is concerned. You support a vote on marriage., particularly when it goes your way, but you steadfastly refuse to answer any questions about votes that outlawed equal access and rights for blacks. You dismiss it.

And you have not directly answered Pearl's question. You won't, I know that. But I wanted to call you out on it.
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:28 PM   #281
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
Connotation is different than institution
And I've always looked at marriage as a covenant relationship, not an institution either way. But we are dealing with institutions at the core of this discussion (whether government or churches), so we unfortunately have what we have. And when we talk about laws that govern a nation's citizens, we are naturally dealing with generalities.

Quote:
Doesn't "threaten" how I see it in any way, shape, or form.
True, but the NPR article I posted pointed out the rock and a hard place that many places of worship face.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:32 PM   #282
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
I'm not dodging anything. (Though I'm confused by your post -- am I dodging racial issues or atheist ones? You seem to be accusing me of both.) As I said, the simple fact that most marriage ceremonies take place in a church provides a religious context for the ceremony in question. For some people it's a superficial connection at best; for many, it's deeper than that.
I don't think you really answered my question. Let me try again: if a male atheist and a female atheist got married, are they really married? In your eyes, as someone who believes in God, are they married?

Now I believe in God, but if an atheist couple makes a vow to spend the rest of their lives together, then yes, they are married and I will see them as husband and wife. Just because they didn't make their union in the eyes of God does not make them any less married than any one else.

As for your last line For some people it's a superficial connection at best; for many, it's deeper than that I get the impression you were referring to atheists. You don't think they can dedicate themselves to long lasting, loving marriages? That's a bit insulting, I would think.
__________________
Pearl is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:33 PM   #283
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martha View Post
I am accusing you of both dodges. You consistently refuse to address any racial issues where marriage is concerned. You support a vote on marriage., particularly when it goes your way, but you steadfastly refuse to answer any questions about votes that outlawed equal access and rights for blacks. You dismiss it.

And you have not directly answered Pearl's question. You won't, I know that. But I wanted to call you out on it.
Martha, I'm not sure what I've said to engender more hostility from you (thought this seems par for the course when it comes to you and me), but whatever it is, I apologize. Maybe you should just put me on ignore.

I don't think I'm dodging anything -- simply trying to answer as best I can. The question in particular was about churches that don't allow interracial marriage. As far as I know, that's not a national issue, or frankly much of a regional one, so it seems a bit abstract. In any event, whether I support such a decision or not is moot. The question as I see it is whether those churches have the right to practice their religion (or, in that case, religious interpretation) as they see fit. Are they foolish for doing so? Sure. Would I feel comfortable in that church? No. Do they have the right and freedom to worship as they see fit? Yes.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:40 PM   #284
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 05:02 PM
Nevermind, I got my answer below.
__________________
Pearl is offline  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:40 PM   #285
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
I don't think you really answered my question. Let me try again: if a male atheist and a female atheist got married, are they really married? In your eyes, as someone who believes in God, are they married?
In my eyes? Sure. Have they invited God into the equation? No. Does that matter? Not to them.

Quote:
As for your last line For some people it's a superficial connection at best; for many, it's deeper than that I get the impression you were referring to atheists. You don't think they can dedicate themselves to long lasting, loving marriages? That's a bit insulting, I would think.
I'm not sure why you would infer that from what I said (again, I simply described marriage as a religious institution, which is how many people see it, which I think is what is fueling much of the national debate). I never referred to atheists or anyone else as being incapable of committed, lifelong relationships (and certainly Christians, who have a marriage/divorce rate similar to anyone else, don't get a "leg up" in the marriage department).

I think there are people who decide to get married in church because that's what you do or it's a nice building or Mom wants us to get married at St. Stephen's, while missing the larger spiritual connotation. It's not a judgment call on anyone; I was simply pointing out that there is a religious connection (whether real or implied, intentional or not) by choosing to be married in a church.
__________________

__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com