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Old 08-17-2012, 03:58 PM   #256
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how about, equality is freedom?
Maybe we should figure out how to define these terms.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:08 PM   #257
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Maybe we should figure out how to define these terms.


until i have equal rights, i am not a fully free citizen.

does that work?
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:42 PM   #258
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until i have equal rights, i am not a fully free citizen.

does that work?
I was thinking about PhilsFan's problem. Maybe you solved it for him.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:45 PM   #259
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^ INDY's from a college town, one where total lack of social exposure would be highly unlikely. Granted, knowing some gay people is different from having had several close gay friends and I have no idea whether that pertains or not, but I'd be very surprised if total social isolation was an issue.
Yeah, the chances of people coming across someone who is gay are pretty big nowadays. You may not know they're gay for one reason or another, but either someone in your family is gay, or a co-worker is, or someone you go to school with is, or whatever.

The town I live in has about 30,000 people. I can count on more than one hand the number of gay people I personally know (a couple of them don't live here in town, they're from other nearby towns, but they visit quite often). And when we lived in Wyoming, my sister went to school with quite a few kids who were gay. And that was in a small town, and in a state that wasn't overly gay-friendly, no less.

That said, however, while exposure to those who are different from you certainly helps, it alone isn't enough to move past whatever notions you have about certain people. You may know them, but you don't really "know" them, if you get my drift.

As for the topic of arguments that help or hurt this sort of discussion, I'll get involved in any discussion related to this issue that comes up, but ultimately, we can talk about gender roles or religion or whatever all day, I don't care. The bottom line is, I support gay marriage because I think it just makes sense to do so. Two consenting adults are in love and want to be together and make it legal. Where's the problem? To deny them that for the simple fact that it's two men or two women doing it instead of a man and a woman doesn't make sense to me, it seems cruel to deny them their happiness simply because you don't approve for whatever reason-why should I care if you're against it? Who died and made you ruler over other people's lives? They're doing the exact same things straight couples get to do when they get married, so why we have to call it different things or why we think it's okay to stop them from participating in the same activities we do, I don't understand.

Denying people civil rights is wrong. Plain and simple. And I don't think you even have to know gay people personally to realize that.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:48 PM   #260
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some people think it's important to deny rights for the sake of the children and to make sure that men don't think it's ok to wear dresses to work.

in conclusion, i am for opposite marriage.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:51 PM   #261
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I haven't been privy to the name-calling (if so, that's disappointing, but not entirely unheard-of here in FYM, on both sides). As far as your inability to find any real reasoning in his posts, I wonder if, again, this is because of a basic difference in worldview. "I think what you say makes no sense, so anything you use to support what you say also makes no sense." I'm certainly guilty of that; I'm guessing most of us are.

I think there is only real room for discussion if both people are willing to engage in the other's worldview with a reasonable amount of goodwill. If not, then we're at something of an impasse.
I don't really think it comes down to worldview, there are rules to what defines logic and reasoning. I can't expand now, but I'll be back later to further extrapolate.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:06 PM   #262
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to make sure that men don't think it's ok to wear dresses to work.
I AM WEARING A DRESS TO WORK RIGHT NOW.

#facepalm
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:19 PM   #263
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I was thinking about PhilsFan's problem. Maybe you solved it for him.
My issue is mainly that the question implies that increasing equality decreases freedom. It's a rhetorical trick that has yet to be shown to have any merit here.

I don't think BVS is entirely accurate in his assessment of INDY's logic. I think INDY generally has somewhat sound logic on the surface, but doesn't explain what he means enough when questioned on it. I think that's the main issue: that without further explanation some of the statements he makes seem faulty or underdeveloped. I certainly would like to engage in more of a back-and-forth with him and others, like yourself, as opposed to the general trend of this forum, which is reacting to news pieces. The dialogues are much more interesting to me, and I think it would be for the benefit of all to have more back-and-forth.

And while we are on the subject of name-calling and productive discussions, I do think, BVS, that you have a tendency to get frustrated by the direction of conversations in a way that becomes a detriment to them. There are times on this forum, and in any political arena, where people become angry and may overreact, and that is fine. It has happened to all of us here, save for those amazing few like Yolland who are so calm and collected all of the time. But you seem to do so pretty consistently, to the point where it comes off as rather dismissive. Yes, a lot of the conversations are redundant, and yes, there are times when people make completely illogical remarks. But flying off the handle with curt remarks, displays of annoyance, or generalizing statements about how "this is just another example of this poster's problem" do nothing for moving things forward. While it may be therapeutic to do here and there, you seem to do so in almost any extended discussion or debate, which seems a little odd to me. Not every discussion warrants disgust or anger or the need to display how confused you are that another poster could even think something like that. I think you often bring up good points and have good rebuttals, but coat them in such disdain that people want to engage you in a battle of snide remarks as opposed to a legitimate discussion.

I'm being somewhat hypocritical, of course. There are times when I make those snide remarks, or make half-assed remarks because I'm in a rush and simply want to put something down, even if it doesn't add to the discussion. There are times when I show immaturity, just like others, because I'm young and that makes me somewhat arrogant (and I really need to stop logging on to the Interference app while drinking). So, I'm not in a situation here where I'm unwittingly casting stones from a glass house. But I do think there are times where your posting style is disruptive when you may not even intend for it to be, and I think hearing it from someone who generally agrees with your points in a lot of the discussions is much more helpful than hearing it from someone like FinanceGuy for the umpteenth time.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:33 PM   #264
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^ INDY's from a college town, one where total lack of social exposure would be highly unlikely. Granted, knowing some gay people is different from having had several close gay friends and I have no idea whether that pertains or not, but I'd be very surprised if total social isolation was an issue.
Gotcha. But I don't think you need "total social isolation" either - my parents lived in one of the most gay-friendly cities, a huge urban centre (Toronto) and certainly would have encountered gay people in their daily life. But that is quite something else from being close with them, inviting them into your home, celebrating their milestones with them and so on. I have no idea where on the spectrum INDY belongs, but I think that there is almost a "critical mass" that has to be achieved before you fully get it, you know what I mean?
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:53 PM   #265
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His posts tend to be generally well-reasoned, even if he's coming from a completely different worldview than the majority of the posters here in FYM.

Worldview is an important issue to consider.
Worldview is important to consider when trying to understand that person's exposure or ability, but worldview is more about opinion not logic or reasoning.

I can't expect to have a productive debate or conversation about Christianity with someone who has grown up in a part of the world where Bible's are banned and all they've been taught is a distorted version of Christianity.

Now you can plug in any other religion, word, or idea in the above and it remains the same.

BUT if that person was exposed to actual Christians and had access to read and study the Bible then I can expect to have a productive conversation with them.

But worldview and/ or opinions do not play a role in this debate. This is a debate about law and equality. I think this is one of the reasons for the great divide in today's environment, we have far too many people that believe worldview and opinion is enough. You see it on all sides of the aisle and it's not only frustrating but it's dangerous.

As I said earlier there are certain "rules" to logic and reasoning. You and I may have different opinions when it comes to economy, but those opinions do not matter unless we discuss the reasoning and logic behind them. And those reasonings or logic are backed up by historical evidence, numbers, facts, etc. Now the interpretation of those facts and numbers may be different and affected by worldview, but that doesn't matter because we're not debating the opinions we are debating the interpretation of facts and numbers which have to follow a line of logic and reasoning.

I haven't seen any of these arguments that follow that line. They all seem to either stop at the opinion, or argue something else that distracts from the true debate.

If you could show me how you interpreted the facts to show why you think YOUR marriage is somehow affected if two women were to get married then I'd listen. But I haven't seen that.

If you could show me how YOUR freedom of religion is effected by two men getting married then I'd listen.

If you could show me reason or logic behind any ONE argument against gay marriange then I'd listen and have a discussion with you, but the truth is that isn't happening. So I can understand where it might seem circular, but it's not for the reasons you think.

We just want to hear thought out logic, but we always seem to get opinion disguised as logic.

If I've overlooked any particular argument then I'll be willing to discuss that with you. I just can't recall ever seeing or hearing one.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:18 PM   #266
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My issue is mainly that the question implies that increasing equality decreases freedom. It's a rhetorical trick that has yet to be shown to have any merit here.

I don't think BVS is entirely accurate in his assessment of INDY's logic. I think INDY generally has somewhat sound logic on the surface, but doesn't explain what he means enough when questioned on it. I think that's the main issue: that without further explanation some of the statements he makes seem faulty or underdeveloped. I certainly would like to engage in more of a back-and-forth with him and others, like yourself, as opposed to the general trend of this forum, which is reacting to news pieces. The dialogues are much more interesting to me, and I think it would be for the benefit of all to have more back-and-forth.

And while we are on the subject of name-calling and productive discussions, I do think, BVS, that you have a tendency to get frustrated by the direction of conversations in a way that becomes a detriment to them. There are times on this forum, and in any political arena, where people become angry and may overreact, and that is fine. It has happened to all of us here, save for those amazing few like Yolland who are so calm and collected all of the time. But you seem to do so pretty consistently, to the point where it comes off as rather dismissive. Yes, a lot of the conversations are redundant, and yes, there are times when people make completely illogical remarks. But flying off the handle with curt remarks, displays of annoyance, or generalizing statements about how "this is just another example of this poster's problem" do nothing for moving things forward. While it may be therapeutic to do here and there, you seem to do so in almost any extended discussion or debate, which seems a little odd to me. Not every discussion warrants disgust or anger or the need to display how confused you are that another poster could even think something like that. I think you often bring up good points and have good rebuttals, but coat them in such disdain that people want to engage you in a battle of snide remarks as opposed to a legitimate discussion.

I'm being somewhat hypocritical, of course. There are times when I make those snide remarks, or make half-assed remarks because I'm in a rush and simply want to put something down, even if it doesn't add to the discussion. There are times when I show immaturity, just like others, because I'm young and that makes me somewhat arrogant (and I really need to stop logging on to the Interference app while drinking). So, I'm not in a situation here where I'm unwittingly casting stones from a glass house. But I do think there are times where your posting style is disruptive when you may not even intend for it to be, and I think hearing it from someone who generally agrees with your points in a lot of the discussions is much more helpful than hearing it from someone like FinanceGuy for the umpteenth time.
You're pretty spot on. I think my biggest weakness in here is that I often turn off the human aspect and just see the reasoning, logic, and the debate and tackle it from an almost challenge or problem solving way. My convictions are from a very human and real place but my execution is sometimes from a debate/ challenge aspect rather than a conversation. And as you said I get frustrated, not when the conversation doesn't go my way or when I don't agree, but when that poster can't back up their stance or apply reasoning to their stance. My usual line of defense is often snark or being dismissive. Because of this approach I also don't take things personal(most of the time) therefore don't make personal attacks.

It's something I need to work on.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:21 PM   #267
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Worldview is important to consider when trying to understand that person's exposure or ability, but worldview is more about opinion not logic or reasoning.
I don't disagree with you -- it would be wonderful if the world ran on clear logic, and truth was objective for everyone to immediately recognize -- but the reality is much more muddied than we may care to admit. The problem is that the truth, from which we can extrapolate logic and reasoning, is a much slippier thing these days. Pick an issue, and there are lobbyists, advocates and activists on both sides eager to couch their belief as fact, and fund studies to prove that it is so. But when the facts are debatable, negligible and available to the highest bidder, how then are we left to reason?

For me, the primary issues underlying this debate are principles. How do we, as a secular nation, follow through on our commitment to the principle that all men are created equal, and subject to equal representation under the law? And how do we, as a secular nation, provide for the safe, free practice of all religious people? And how do we hold both those principles true at the same time, without sacrificing either, particularly when the government has muddied the water by gotten into the business of blessing marriage (a religious institution)?
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:24 PM   #268
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I AM WEARING A DRESS TO WORK RIGHT NOW.

#facepalm


it's probably my fault. my being sexually and emotionally attracted to men means that you can't possibly know how to act like a man.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:27 PM   #269
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it's probably my fault. my being sexually and emotionally attracted to men, i've subverted god-ordained gender roles and now how can you know how to act like a man?
You'd be amazed how often I wonder, "What would Irvine do?"
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:29 PM   #270
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For me, the primary issues underlying this debate are principles. How do we, as a secular nation, follow through on our commitment to the principle that all men are created equal, and subject to equal representation under the law? And how do we, as a secular nation, provide for the safe, free practice of all religious people? And how do we hold both those principles true at the same time, without sacrificing either, particularly when the government has muddied the water by gotten into the business of blessing marriage (a religious institution)?


if you don't think that gay people should get married, and this is due to a religious conviction, by all means, people are free to vote for politicians who act as they believe.

but what i don't understand is how the existence of gay people or the existence of SSM is somehow a violation of someone else's right to exercise their religion as they see fit.
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