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Old 08-13-2012, 06:58 PM   #196
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He seems to be blaming all of his problems on his parents' sexuality, as if that was the only piece of the puzzle that was different. It's pretty baseless.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:00 PM   #197
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He seems to be blaming all of his problems on his parents' sexuality, as if that was the only piece of the puzzle that was different. It's pretty baseless.
I didn't get that he blamed all his parents' sexuality -- rather that it started with some form of gender/identity confusion, and extended out into the culture as a whole. His frustration seems to be that he felt stuck between two worlds -- not, as I imagine, an uncommon feeling.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:04 PM   #198
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I'm on a mobile, but in a nutshell, the study equated broken families with LGBT families, like Robert does.

So if a woman were with a man, the marriage ended, she then had a girlfriend for any period of time, and then went on to any other relationships, she was considered a "lesbian mother."

Robert seems to think this model, as well as having a mother who dies at 19, to be representative of "bisexual parenting." he seems to assume that a bisexual is incapable of committing to a partner as well.

You can feel the self-loathing in the piece, and you can see the Exodus-like mentality of sex, love, and romance as a series of difficult choices and obligations that require him to actively and consciously conform to a pre existing set of behavioral expectations required by his possession of a penis.

Its sad.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:05 PM   #199
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Quite simply, growing up with gay parents was very difficult, and not because of prejudice from neighbors. People in our community didn’t really know what was going on in the house. To most outside observers, I was a well-raised, high-achieving child, finishing high school with straight A’s.

Inside, however, I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird. I have no mental health disorders or biological conditions. I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast.
Sounds like a woe-is-me attitude problem to me.

To be honest, I think this issue is probably the best one that anti-gay marriage people have, and it's the only one I've ever given some credence to. I don't agree with it, because there have been millions of kids who didn't grow up in a "traditional" family who have gone on to lead great lives, but I can sort of see where some are coming from with it.

LOL at 248 people being a "massive" study.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:06 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by nathan1977

I didn't get that he blamed all his parents' sexuality -- rather that it started with some form of gender/identity confusion, and extended out into the culture as a whole. His frustration seems to be that he felt stuck between two worlds -- not, as I imagine, an uncommon feeling.

People feel gender confusion with or without bisexual mothers. He seems to think it would have been different if he'd had a father. Who can say? Sounds like there are things Robert doesn't like about himself and he's throwing rocks in the air.

A gay hispanic boy growing up in the Bronx is likely never goin to have an easy time. Robert isn't helping those kids at all.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:08 PM   #201
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I saw a crime story on TV once about a man who'd killed his wife. Apparently he'd had a history of dressing up like a woman and acting feminine in nature.

It was traced back to his childhood, where his father beat him and his brother (brothers? I can't remember how many he had), but not his sister. He took that to mean that if he dressed more like a girl and acted like a girl that he might escape the abuse somehow.

He grew up in a heterosexual parent household.

(I found it strange, though, that the story focused so much on his cross-dressing and made a big thing out of it. He'd also had an incident where he tried to stab his wife in the head and had had other violent outbursts over the years. I found that stuff much more disconcerting than the fact he dressed up like a girl. I think the abuse from his childhood had much more of an effect on his behavior than the cross-dressing did. But the show and trial made a big thing out of the latter. Of course.)
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:21 PM   #202
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Inside, however, I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird.
I really took issue with this because there are many, many of us whose home lives were drastically different from everyone around you - any immigrant kid who grows up in a community where nobody is like them, where nobody speaks their language or understands their customs or their "weird/smelly" food, etc. knows of what I speak. I've had friends who were the only non-white people in the county, nevermind their town (and some as exotic as Hindu on top of it). And you know what, we didn't grow up "weird".

I actually feel badly for him - think he has a lot of self-esteem issues.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:42 PM   #203
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I know kids who haven't had a household drastically different who grow up "weird".
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:50 PM   #204
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Yeah, "weird" can mean a variety of things. And sometimes it's associated with bad stuff, but sometimes it's also a good thing. I fully believe everyone can point to some aspect of themselves that others would find "weird". Sticking out from others in some way isn't the issue in and of itself. It's how the person deals with being different that matters.

And besides that, a person may think they're all alone in their weirdness sometimes, but there's probably more people like them out there than they realize. It's just a matter of how often the things that set them apart get talked about in public, really, or how easily they can find other like-minded people in their area or elsewhere.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:38 PM   #205
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Unfortunately, the Black and Latino communities are known for their homophobia, so there certainly was no support for Robert almost anywhere.

I didn't like how he said he "chose" to marry a woman and be monogamous. He makes it sound like he grudgingly did that. Also, it is my understanding that bisexuals are capable of being monogamous, no matter who or what gender they end up with.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:18 PM   #206
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I actually feel badly for him - think he has a lot of self-esteem issues.
Same here. And despite his careful framing of the story, the main impression I was left with was of a man with an atypical gender expression who was judged, tormented and ostracized by peers for it, internalized their perceptions, and still struggles with it. ("When I stepped outside of my mothers’ trailer, I was immediately tagged as an outcast because of my girlish mannerisms, funny clothes, lisp, and outlandishness...I befriended people rarely and alienated others easily...When I got to college, I set off everyone’s “gaydar” and the campus LGBT group quickly descended upon me to tell me it was 100-percent certain I must be a homosexual...Though I am hard-working and a quick learner, I have trouble in professional settings because co-workers find me bizarre...")

But what's completely unconvincing to me is his defeatist--painfully, piteously defeatist--rationalization that growing up without a father made him "destined to exist as a social outcast." It isn't remotely typical for men who grew up never having a father around to lisp, have "outlandish" "girlish" mannerisms, wear "funny" clothes, and as adults read to their coworkers as "bizarre." Sure, a minority of them do--and so do a minority of men who grew up in nice, normal, Chick-Fil-A-approved families with dads who tried as hard as any others to teach their "weird" sons how to act like proper boys. IF there's any "blessing," as he puts it, that gay men (or perhaps better, gender-atypical men) who did grow up in such families received that he didn't, maybe it's just that that made it that much harder for them to evade the pain of taking ownership of who they are by compartmentalizing and attributing the most despised parts of themselves to some external force (Mom, Satan, campus LGBT group...).

I also found it very strange how little detail he was willing to offer about his upbringing, considering how much he wants to pin on it. Was his mother closeted? Was he pressured to keep her relationship and its place in his own social life a secret ("People in our community didn’t really know what was going on in the house")? Why did she spend 15 or so years (??--again, he's curiously vague as to the timeframe) raising her son as a single mother during the week, then bringing him along on weekends to "a trailer tucked discreetly in an RV park 50 minutes away from the town where we lived"? Would anyone describe such an arrangement as "heterosexual parenting" had the mother's love interest been a man instead?

Finally--and with all due acknowledgment of the fact that I know absolutely nothing about his wife or what his relationship with her is like--I cannot help wondering how she felt and what she thought when she read this:
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As a man, though I am bisexual, I do not get to throw away the mother of my child as if she is a used incubator. I had to help my wife through the difficulties of pregnancy and postpartum depression. When she is struggling with discrimination against mothers or women at a sexist workplace, I have to be patient and listen. I must attend to her sexual needs. Once I was a father, I put aside my own homosexual past and vowed never to divorce my wife or take up with another person, male or female, before I died. I chose that commitment in order to protect my children from dealing with harmful drama, even as they grow up to be adults.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:25 PM   #207
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Ooh, yeah, that last part is very strangely worded.

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As a man, though I am bisexual, I do not get to throw away the mother of my child as if she is a used incubator. I had to help my wife through the difficulties of pregnancy and postpartum depression. When she is struggling with discrimination against mothers or women at a sexist workplace, I have to be patient and listen.
I don't care if you're straight, bi, or gay, I would presume any man worth their salt would be, should be supportive of the women in their lives who go through any of those things.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:47 PM   #208
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Finally--and with all due acknowledgment of the fact that I know absolutely nothing about his wife or what his relationship with her is like--I cannot help wondering how she felt and what she thought when she read this:

It's so out of te Exodus "ex-gay" handbook it's painful.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:50 PM   #209
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I don't care if you're straight, bi, or gay, I would presume any man worth their salt would be, should be supportive of the women in their lives who go through any of those things.


For some, heterosexuality must be endured. Remember, we have 5,000 years of history to live up to.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:12 PM   #210
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It's so out of te Exodus "ex-gay" handbook it's painful.
There is a special place in Hell for those people.
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