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Old 08-11-2012, 05:50 AM   #181
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Sean, what would you say to this (And I mean this in a completely respectable tone because you seem to me to be absolutely respectable).
I've always thought about religion as being on a sliding scale. There are the fundamentalists who take the word of the bible (or whatever their book may be) at face value; The word of god is the word of god and there is no way around it. But there are also those who follow religion on more of a spiritual or karmic basis; Do unto others, be a good person, etc. My thought has always been that, on the sliding scale, the people in the latter category are actually less religious (or rather, closer to the agnostics), than the fundamentalists. You're both following the same 'word' so to speak, yet the latter group skews much further toward an agnostic view of the world; That much of the hateful speak (being gay is wrong, for example) is actually closer to the real message and if you sway from that, you're actually swaying from the word of the bible. I'm not sure where I'm going with this (and it's 5:30 on a Saturday morning, if you get my meaning), but I guess my point is, many Christian or Muslim or whatever would like to distance themselves from the fundamentalists. I believe that the fundamentalists are actually the most religious and those that are less fanatical have actually let agnostic principals into their beliefs (again, it's 5:30 and I'm rambling and havent actually asked you anything, but maybe you can elaborate on this.... and I can read it when I wake up)
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:27 AM   #182
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Feel free not to answer that, Sean.
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Old 08-11-2012, 01:59 PM   #183
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Feel free not to answer that, Sean.


typical Canadian.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:27 PM   #184
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Feel free not to answer that, Sean.
Ah, what the heck. . .

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Sean, what would you say to this (And I mean this in a completely respectable tone because you seem to me to be absolutely respectable).
I've always thought about religion as being on a sliding scale. There are the fundamentalists who take the word of the bible (or whatever their book may be) at face value; The word of god is the word of god and there is no way around it. But there are also those who follow religion on more of a spiritual or karmic basis; Do unto others, be a good person, etc. My thought has always been that, on the sliding scale, the people in the latter category are actually less religious (or rather, closer to the agnostics), than the fundamentalists. You're both following the same 'word' so to speak, yet the latter group skews much further toward an agnostic view of the world; That much of the hateful speak (being gay is wrong, for example) is actually closer to the real message and if you sway from that, you're actually swaying from the word of the bible. I'm not sure where I'm going with this (and it's 5:30 on a Saturday morning, if you get my meaning), but I guess my point is, many Christian or Muslim or whatever would like to distance themselves from the fundamentalists. I believe that the fundamentalists are actually the most religious and those that are less fanatical have actually let agnostic principals into their beliefs (again, it's 5:30 and I'm rambling and havent actually asked you anything, but maybe you can elaborate on this.... and I can read it when I wake up)
I think I see what you are getting at, and that may be true in some cases.

But I certainly wouldn't say it's always true. I know many very conservative fundamentalist Christians who aren't particularly spiritual. In the Christian faith I've come up with there is a high value and having a personal connection, a "relationship" or even a friendship with Christ. Those that would seem to know Jesus in this way would be what I'd describe as highly spiritual and/or religious (though many differentiate between those two terms--it's very cool to say "I'm not really religious, I'm more spiritual, you know"). There are lots of very strict fundamentalist Christians who don't seem to have this type of spirituality and may not even claim to. On the other hand there are very liberal Christians who are also very religious in this way, in that they seem to have a very close connection to Jesus, i.e. that He is very real in their lives even though they aren't necessarily strict Biblical literalists.

I myself like to say that "I'm more religious and not very spiritual"--partly as a contrarian go-against-the-aforementioned-trend, but also because my personality is much more comfortable with theological discussion and analysis than the more touchy-feely aspects of faith. For a lot of reasons my relationship with God is very conflicted.

I know it all may sound a bit weird, but hopefully it gives you a sense of what things look like from inside a believer's perspective.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:58 PM   #185
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i think that's a very interesting viewpoint, and not one i've heard expressed much.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:53 PM   #186
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I read this in the paper this afternoon and may have had something in my eye just then.

With promotion, U.S. Army welcomes first openly gay general - latimes.com
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:00 PM   #187
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, but I'm not sure why we have to keep saying "openly gay". Surely "gay" would suffice?
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:05 PM   #188
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There's a difference. I keep trying to type something coherent, but I can't. Irvine will explain it better than I can.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:09 PM   #189
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Hepner and Smith got married last year in Washington, D.C. They dated for nine before that. Before don’t ask, don’t tell was repealed, they could not present themselves as a couple at military functions.
Unbelievable *Shakes head*.

The picture accompanying that article is very cool. Great story . Good to see people finally getting it and supporting such progress.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:00 PM   #190
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, but I'm not sure why we have to keep saying "openly gay". Surely "gay" would suffice?
Because for all they know, there have been gay Generals who didn't tell anyone. And there probably were. Saying "the first gay general" would likely be inaccurate
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:03 PM   #191
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Ah, what the heck. . .



I think I see what you are getting at, and that may be true in some cases.

But I certainly wouldn't say it's always true. I know many very conservative fundamentalist Christians who aren't particularly spiritual. In the Christian faith I've come up with there is a high value and having a personal connection, a "relationship" or even a friendship with Christ. Those that would seem to know Jesus in this way would be what I'd describe as highly spiritual and/or religious (though many differentiate between those two terms--it's very cool to say "I'm not really religious, I'm more spiritual, you know"). There are lots of very strict fundamentalist Christians who don't seem to have this type of spirituality and may not even claim to. On the other hand there are very liberal Christians who are also very religious in this way, in that they seem to have a very close connection to Jesus, i.e. that He is very real in their lives even though they aren't necessarily strict Biblical literalists.

I myself like to say that "I'm more religious and not very spiritual"--partly as a contrarian go-against-the-aforementioned-trend, but also because my personality is much more comfortable with theological discussion and analysis than the more touchy-feely aspects of faith. For a lot of reasons my relationship with God is very conflicted.

I know it all may sound a bit weird, but hopefully it gives you a sense of what things look like from inside a believer's perspective.
Thank you for your thoughtful, genuine reply to my semi-coherent drunken ramblings
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:39 AM   #192
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Because for all they know, there have been gay Generals who didn't tell anyone. And there probably were. Saying "the first gay general" would likely be inaccurate


yes, exactly.
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:59 PM   #193
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I thought this article was fascinating, particularly in light of the controversy surrounding Regenerus' study. I remember taking a Queer Studies course in college and hearing the stories of bisexual people who felt oddly disenfranchised both from gay culture and straight culture. This article seems to support that experience.

Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View Public Discourse
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:34 PM   #194
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Fascinating? That he blames his discomfort with his bisexuality on his lesbian mothers?

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Even if my peers’ parents were divorced, and many of them were, they still grew up seeing male and female social models. They learned, typically, how to be bold and unflinching from male figures and how to write thank-you cards and be sensitive from female figures. These are stereotypes, of course, but stereotypes come in handy when you inevitably leave the safety of your lesbian mom’s trailer and have to work and survive in a world where everybody thinks in stereotypical terms, even gays.

[...]

In terms of sexuality, gays who grew up in traditional households benefited from at least seeing some kind of functional courtship rituals around them. I had no clue how to make myself attractive to girls. When I stepped outside of my mothers’ trailer, I was immediately tagged as an outcast because of my girlish mannerisms, funny clothes, lisp, and outlandishness. Not surprisingly, I left high school as a virgin, never having had a girlfriend, instead having gone to four proms as a wisecracking sidekick to girls who just wanted someone to chip in for a limousine.


I know it's very, very tough to find kids who will trash their gay parents, even after this fully discredited "study," but you'd think anti-gay groups would be able to pay at least someone better than Robert.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:52 PM   #195
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Fascinating?
I found his reflective nature -- as well as his experiences -- fascinating.

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I know it's very, very tough to find kids who will trash their gay parents, even after this fully discredited "study," but you'd think anti-gay groups would be able to pay at least someone better than Robert.
Those are strong charges. Is that what happened?
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