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Old 08-08-2012, 07:59 AM   #151
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In general, when someone starts their sentence with "I'm not xxxx, but I just" it's being followed by just that they claimed they're not.

That letter. Wow. Way to support and love your child for following its heart.


I'd like some response to my post from a few days back, Indy, as I'm genuinely interested in your answers.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:58 AM   #152
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Someone like Indy should just answer straight up....

Do you believe homosexuals to be human beings? If the answer is no, then it makes the marriage question easy and understandable.

If the answer is yes to being fellow humans, then the question is why are you denying a basic right for one group of your own species?

The answer is "I think it's gross".

But for some reason a lot of people are afraid to answer exactly that, maybe a weird fear of being insensitive. Instead they hide behind a "definition" from a book written 2000 years ago full of "gross" stuff (torture, rape, child abuse, mass murder, jealousy, anger, fear )

It's like comedy. You may not find something funny, and you're correct to think that. Others may find that exact thing you didn't like, as being hilarious, and they're right too! It's called an opinion. I do not want laws created out of subjectivity. I want laws created out of factual evidence or as close to that as we can find that helps a society function.

Two dudes marrying, will not end civilization. And for the argument, a man marrying ten wives COULD have a negative impact on society (that's nine chicks I can't score with )....and seriously you run into consent, abuse, child endangerment, legal issues (divorce, death, law suits, etc).

Marriage for two consenting adults, no matter what gender, is coming.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:32 AM   #153
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I feel like INDY just keeps moving the goalposts.

I don't see what relevance historical definitions and understandings of relationships and gender roles have in this discussion. Did people contemplate that someday women will be ministers or reverends? Did people contemplate that women would be presidents, doctors, lawyers and politicians? Hell, did people contemplate women voting? Did they contemplate that we would cohabit before marriage and that in some cultures (like Sweden) that is the predominant form of cohabitation these days? Or that we would be able to adopt children of other races or marry people of other races? The human race has been all about progress from day 1 - that is why we have democratic societies today, that is why we have technology and industry and medicine and everything else that comes with progress. 100 years ago, how many of us here who are people of colour or female would not have been able to live the lives that we do today? Is that really the barometer that we should be using?

I asked INDY about the negative impacts on a society where gay marriage is legal. He then cited Michael Coren (LOL) saying that in Canada there has been an increase in human rights tribunal complaints and cases against people who are anti-gay marriage. Seriously? What an absurd argument. Obviously once gay marriage is legalized and aside from changing the definition in the Family Law Act, it also follows that analogous changes are made in every other piece of provincial and federal legislation that you would then see more legal action. Because before it was legalized, it wasn't an established right, therefore you could not litigate on discriminatory actions. But once that became an enumerated right, of course people took to the human rights tribunal as they should. But I guess to INDY the more important thing is that people who wish to discriminate be able to do so with impunity. THAT is the real injustice.

As for the Chick-Fil-A, like somebody said, what has Chick-Fil-A done for you that's so important that you'd rather line up for an hour to eat there and boast about it than stand up for the rights of your citizens who are friends, family, coworkers, neighbours? Maybe INDY just doesn't have close friends who are committed gay couples and simply doesn't get it on that level, I don't know.

As a personal aside, I got engaged this past weekend. We are both thrilled and excited to celebrate with our families and friends. We'll be able to marry where and when we want and have all the rights of the state bestowed upon us. It's a wonderful thing and even though I have been with my fiance for a while and we live together (in sin!), I do feel differently now and that feeling is a great one. So if somebody can explain to me why I should withhold that happiness and the rights flowing therefrom from my gay and lesbian friends, I'm all ears.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:34 AM   #154
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As a personal aside, I got engaged this past weekend. We are both thrilled and excited to celebrate with our families and friends.

Congratulations!
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:40 AM   #155
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Congratulations Anitram! And that was a great post.

I still don't see the link between gay people and polygamy. And I don't understand how that link was made in the first place.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:53 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I feel like INDY just keeps moving the goalposts.

I don't see what relevance historical definitions and understandings of relationships and gender roles have in this discussion. Did people contemplate that someday women will be ministers or reverends? Did people contemplate that women would be presidents, doctors, lawyers and politicians? Hell, did people contemplate women voting? Did they contemplate that we would cohabit before marriage and that in some cultures (like Sweden) that is the predominant form of cohabitation these days? Or that we would be able to adopt children of other races or marry people of other races? The human race has been all about progress from day 1 - that is why we have democratic societies today, that is why we have technology and industry and medicine and everything else that comes with progress. 100 years ago, how many of us here who are people of colour or female would not have been able to live the lives that we do today? Is that really the barometer that we should be using?

I asked INDY about the negative impacts on a society where gay marriage is legal. He then cited Michael Coren (LOL) saying that in Canada there has been an increase in human rights tribunal complaints and cases against people who are anti-gay marriage. Seriously? What an absurd argument. Obviously once gay marriage is legalized and aside from changing the definition in the Family Law Act, it also follows that analogous changes are made in every other piece of provincial and federal legislation that you would then see more legal action. Because before it was legalized, it wasn't an established right, therefore you could not litigate on discriminatory actions. But once that became an enumerated right, of course people took to the human rights tribunal as they should. But I guess to INDY the more important thing is that people who wish to discriminate be able to do so with impunity. THAT is the real injustice.

As for the Chick-Fil-A, like somebody said, what has Chick-Fil-A done for you that's so important that you'd rather line up for an hour to eat there and boast about it than stand up for the rights of your citizens who are friends, family, coworkers, neighbours? Maybe INDY just doesn't have close friends who are committed gay couples and simply doesn't get it on that level, I don't know.
Very good and thought out post.

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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
As a personal aside, I got engaged this past weekend. We are both thrilled and excited to celebrate with our families and friends. We'll be able to marry where and when we want and have all the rights of the state bestowed upon us. It's a wonderful thing and even though I have been with my fiance for a while and we live together (in sin!), I do feel differently now and that feeling is a great one. So if somebody can explain to me why I should withhold that happiness and the rights flowing therefrom from my gay and lesbian friends, I'm all ears.
Congratulations!
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:08 AM   #157
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In all fairness, INDY is arguing alone (eith the exception of Iron Horse who shows up to tell us he will of Jesus from time to time). And he does try to put some reasoning behind his stance (as opposed to naked proclomations). That can't be easy to keep up.

And congrats to anitram.
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:22 AM   #158
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I don't really see the problem with polygamous marriages either to be honest. A little weird, sure, but if everyone was in agreeance...
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:29 AM   #159
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Trying to figure out the taxes.
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:39 AM   #160
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I don't really see the problem with polygamous marriages either to be honest. A little weird, sure, but if everyone was in agreeance...
I just think that it'd give too many issues with most daily things. The paperwork would be enormous. Besides that I don't really see how a polygamous relationship is beneficial to everyone. I don't know anyone in one, either. All I know it from is the Arabian sheiks or African princes with their harem, and mormons. Not quite a good example for equal rights, or women rights for that matter.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:46 AM   #161
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I don't really see the problem with polygamous marriages either to be honest. A little weird, sure, but if everyone was in agreeance...
I don't see how those types of marriages or relationships work out. If its tough for two people to be in such a relationship, how can three, four or more survive? I can't imagine the jealousy and competition going on there.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:07 AM   #162
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I don't really see the problem with polygamous marriages either to be honest. A little weird, sure, but if everyone was in agreeance...
Money. Marriage as a legal entity is mainly about shared assets. Having polygamy complicates it beyond the government's ability to sort it out.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:49 AM   #163
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Marriage was polygamous for, you know, centuries.

It very traditional, and what better way to show just how different and special the genders are than to give men multiple sex partners within the bounds of matrimony?

Let's stop pretending the genders are the same.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:46 PM   #164
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Marriage was polygamous for, you know, centuries.

It very traditional, and what better way to show just how different and special the genders are than to give men multiple sex partners within the bounds of matrimony?

Let's stop pretending the genders are the same.
It would be harder more difficult to do this within a Biblical traditional polygamous marriage.
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Old 08-08-2012, 04:39 PM   #165
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Hiding your bigoted beliefs behind frivolous reasons doesn't make you any less of a bigot. In fact, the idea that you might not even realize you're being a bigot might make you more of one.
By the same token, simply saying "I'm not anti gay, I just.." doesn't make you less anti gay
Ta-da.

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I respect that you are consistent but you can't choose to be polygamous if it's illegal where you live. If marriage is about love, commitment and support who are we to judge if a man falls in love with 3 women? If marriage is anything but between one man and one woman you can't.
You misunderstand. What I mean is, you aren't born polygamous. It's not an orientation, it's not an innate part of your being. It's a type of lifestyle you can choose to be a part of. The same can't be said for gay people.

And many polygamists have figured out how to get around the legality issue-they legally marry one person and have "religious/spiritual ceremonies" with the others.

Again, I've never said we should judge such a thing. I honestly do not care if a man has three wives. I do think it sucks that only the men can do that and they won't allow a woman to have three husbands-there's definitely a sexist aspect to polygamy that I don't support. But them all living together in and of itself is really none of my concern, and I'm certainly not about to sit here and demand laws denying such unions if, once again, everyone involved is of legal age and consenting. Besides, as has been noted, the Bible sure doesn't seem to have an issue with the concept!

I'm still curious as to how you can sit here and talk about the value of personal freedom and yet continue to support denying gay couples the right to get married. Isn't that infringing on their personal freedom? Why do you think you have the power to make such a decision about their lives? When you do get back to answering everyone's questions more fully, I really hope those are among the ones you answer, because I'm dying to hear the reasoning.

Unless Axver is right and you are just taking the piss. Which I sincerely hope you are, because if you aren't, that's just really sad.

Also, congratulations, anitram! And, as always, excellent post .
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