Same-Sex Marriage General Discussion Thread

[nathan1977]

don't people vote for their representatives? isn't that why we have a representative democracy and not mob rule?

how would Mississippi or Louisiana vote today if the question of interracial marriage came to a vote? what about in 1990? 1980?

I don't disagree with you, I'm just pointing out the train of thought.

The problem with a two-party system is that there will always be about 50% of the population who says that whatever elected representative doesn't represent them.

 

[yolland]

Well, it's a weak train of thought then. Sometimes a concerted struggle over what is just is necessary, and we are after all a constitutional republic based on the principles of liberal democracy; factions don't have the right to impose whatever they wish on the whole based on numbers alone, they have to have a proper legal argument and articulate it through the mandated structures. States have the right to establish a referendum mechanism if they wish, line-item 'direct democracy' as it were, but that doesn't mean the usual constitutionally mandated checks and balances via the courts won't apply.

Anyway, I can tell you with confidence what the results of a "voter referendum" in Mississippi circa Freedom Summer as to whether to end Jim Crow would've been: Hell F'ing No. Because I was a child there during the '70s in the immediate aftermath of all that, my parents and several of our neighbors had been involved in registering black voters, sit-ins and marches, I heard their stories of how the white community responded at the time (from murders to threats to cold-shouldering) and I saw with my own eyes the social scars that remained; it's not like people magically forgot what their former relationships were like and society transformed overnight. But how many white Southerners would you find today who truly wish to go back to that? Virtually none. And how many black Southerners would rather go back to that than have had to deal with the inevitable reality of less-than-fully-changed white hearts and minds in the aftermath? Zero. And THAT, too, has implications for the future that should not be ignored. Look, Chris Christie made this analogy, not me! I'd love to see him get up in front of some of my black neighbors from childhood and try proposing to their faces that perhaps it would've been better for them to keep on as they were, in the "greater interest" of preserving "consensus" (i.e. passive black acceptance of white supremacy out of fear) in Southern society.

 

[deep]

Why not let the people decide ?

this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom --
and that government of the people,
by the people,
for the people,
shall not perish from the earth.



There is collective wisdom in the people
the people of New Jersey decided for themselves in the election of Nov 1915 about suffrage
only to have the federal government over rule and dictate to them.

Christie should talk about that other state wide referendum.

 

[Irvine511]

NJ Governor Chris Christie, in Hot Water Over Civil Rights Remarks, Calls Gay Lawmaker 'Numbnuts'

New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, facing criticism over remarks he made last week after calling for a voter referendum on same-sex marriage, in which he suggested African-Americans pursuing their civil rights would have wanted a voter referendum, sought to clarify those remarks in a press conference today.

Said Christie last week: "The fact of the matter is I think people would have been happy to have a referendum on civil rights rather than fighting and dying in the streets in the South.”

Following Christie's statement, out gay Assemblyman Reed Gusciora lashed out at him: "Govs. Lester Maddox and George Wallace would have found allies in Chris Christie over efforts by the Justice Department to end segregation in the South."

Christie sought to clarify his remarks in a press conference today: “The political climate in the South didn’t give them the option to have a referendum back then. They wished they would have had the option, but the political climate did not permit it, meaning they would not win.”

He also hit back at Gusciora:

Christie said “numbnuts like (Assemblyman) Reed Gusciora should be ashamed of themselves” for comparing him to Maddox and Wallace.

Meanwhile, today Assembly Speaker Sheila Oliver and Congressman Rush Holt will be joined by Rep. John Lewis (D-GA), a Freedom Rider and then student activist who was beaten for leading protests against racial discrimination, at a press conference today to discuss Christie's remarks.

Holt condemned Christie's comments ahead of the presser:

“I just thought it was unbelievable, unreal,” he said. “He’s a lawyer, governor and not to know that putting the issue of civil rights – segregation and racial discrimination in the American south – to a vote? We would have never made it during the 40s, the 50s or the 60s. Most of the governors except for a few of the states were outright segregationist. And most of these states in the old confederacy, people of color could not register to vote.”

Read more: NJ Governor Chris Christie, in Hot Water Over Civil Rights Remarks, Calls Gay Lawmaker 'Numbnuts' |Gay News|Gay Blog Towleroad

maybe Christie is a genius and this is some kind of broader, ironic point?

but he's right: "the political climate did not permit it, meaning they would not win."

 

[yolland]

What's the irony? That "people" and "they" apparently meant black Southerners, as opposed to gay Jerseyans who should therefore be duly grateful to at least have the opportunity to see the majority reaffirm their unequal human dignity at the polls? That desegregation and same-sex marriage are crucially alike not so much in worthiness of cause, as in putting the poor, misunderstood governor in the position of having to choose between the majority reviling him today and the majority reviling him tomorrow?



Anyhow, he's got to run for President, because those are gonna be some of the best parodies ever. Part of Christie's appeal is that you can see the guy with a heart and a brain behind the cartoon, but there's no two ways about the fact that there IS a cartoon there.

 

[Irvine511]

What's the irony?

by demanding a referendum about civil rights he tells us exactly why civil rights should not be placed up to a vote, citing the civil rights movement.

Anyhow, he's got to run for President, because those are gonna be some of the best parodies ever. Part of Christie's appeal is that you can see the guy with a heart and a brain behind the cartoon, but there's no two ways about the fact that there IS a cartoon there.

deep down, i never totally lost sympathy for this one:

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I love how they think they know what the majority of JC Penney customers will do. Funny, Ellen has done huge business for Cover Girl. And no one is freaking out over it. They really look insane, especially since Ellen is one of the most popular and marketable celebrities right now.



Ellen DeGeneres' new gig as a spokeswoman for JC Penney is just one component in the retail brand's planned makeover, but not everyone is thrilled by the choice.

OneMillionMoms.com, a division of the American Family Association, is now calling for DeGeneres to be replaced by the Texas-based chain because she is a lesbian, Towleroad and other media outlets are reporting.

"Funny that JC Penney thinks hiring an open homosexual spokesperson will help their business when most of their customers are traditional families," the group writes on its website. "DeGeneres is not a true representation of the type of families that shop at their store. The majority of JC Penney shoppers will be offended and choose to no longer shop there. The small percentage of customers they are attempting to satisfy will not offset their loss in sales."

The group's statement concludes: "By jumping on the pro-gay bandwagon, JC Penney is attempting to gain a new target market and in the process will lose customers with traditional values that have been faithful to them over all these years."

 

[anitram]

Right, because when supermodels are the spokeswomen for make-up and mascara, they are a true representation of the rest of us who buy this stuff?

 

[Irvine511]

why does anyone listen to a hate group like the AFA?

Ellen is a sensationally popular media personality who's audience is likely very similar to the consumers of a brand like JC Penny. extensive research was put into her selection as a spokesperson and she was deemed someone who could help them maximize their profitability through her popularity and platform.

if one wants to tap into gay dollars, there are much better ways of doing it than by hiring someone as inoffensive, wholesome, and crowd pleasing as Ellen.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I tried the Cover Girl Olay makeup she advertises just because of her and the ads I saw Didn't make my skin look nearly as beautiful as hers does, obviously I didn't expect it to. She eats a vegan diet and at 50 whatever I think she may have some non cosmetic help to look as good as she does.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

OneMillionMoms.com, a division of the American Family Association, is now calling for DeGeneres to be replaced by the Texas-based chain because she is a lesbian, Towleroad and other media outlets are reporting.

"Funny that JC Penney thinks hiring an open homosexual spokesperson will help their business when most of their customers are traditional families," the group writes on its website.

Wow, really?

"OneMillionMoms"-that might be a bit of an overexaggeration of how many moms would support any sort of lunacy with this group.

The group's statement concludes: "By jumping on the pro-gay bandwagon, JC Penney is attempting to gain a new target market and in the process will lose customers with traditional values that have been faithful to them over all these years."

Aw, darn, they might lose a few bigoted customers? What a shame that would be.

 

[Irvine511]

congratulations, WA state.

WA Senate approves bill to legalize gay marriage - Yahoo! News

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Fantastic news .

 

[corianderstem]

Rock the eff on, Washington. This is wonderful news.

 

[deep]

we will have to see what the Christians do

Gay marriage opponent Jane Sterland, 56, stood outside the Senate gallery before the debate started. Sterland said she was disappointed by the light turnout of same-sex marriage foes.

"It saddens me that there aren't more Christians here tonight," she said. "I'm just very grieved about this whole thing. I want to be here for prayer support against this issue."
Nearly a dozen amendments were introduced, including several that passed that strengthen legal protections for religious groups and organizations.

Sen. Dan Swecker argued that the proposed law alters the definition of marriage and "will lead to the silencing of those who believe in traditional marriage."

Even though a referendum clause amendment was rejected, opponents have already promised to file a challenge, which can't be done until after it is passed by the full Legislature and signed into law by Gregoire. Opponents then must turn in 120,577 signatures by June 6.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think for my 14th birthday I probably dreamed of getting a horse. Realistically a cute outfit or purse or something.



14-Year-Old Asks Maryland Lawmakers To Vote Down Same-Sex Marriage For Her Birthday | ThinkProgress


"Today is my 14th birthday and it would be the best birthday present ever if you would vote 'no' on gay marriage. I really feel bad for the kids who have two parents who are the same gender. Even though some kids feel like it's fine, they have no idea what kind of wonderful experiences they miss out on. I don't want any more kids to get confused about what's right and okay. I really don't want to grow up in a world where marriage isn't such a special thing anymore. It's rather scary to think that when I grow up, the legislator or the court can change the definition of any word they want. If they can change the definition of marriage, then they could change the definition of any word. People have the choice to be gay, but I don't want to be affected by their choice. People say that they were just born that way, but I've met really nice adults who did change. So please vote no on gay marriage. Thank you."

 

[BEAL]

One of the most pathetic things I've ever read, and that's saying something coming from this forum regarding this subject.

I just want to know how she is affected by someone else's choice? I want that answered. Does it mean two guys she had a crush on, but now can't marry because they're gay....is that really affecting her, isn't that being selfish? I'd like to change the defintion of the word bitch to this girl's name I really, really hope this is just a vocal minority that's in it's last phase, much like the civil rights movement where it's always a bit louder and darker before it's over.

And the line "I've known people who've changed". Ok, let's have names and hear from them. I know some very nice black people, and they haven't robbed me yet!

 

[BoMac]

Awful.

Her mother is also a piece of work.

Kathleen Kositzky Crank | Facebook

She's been very active in the comments section of that article.

 

[BVS]

What was Indy saying about propaganda and indoctrination?

 

[BoMac]

Thanks for nothing, Cynthia Nixon!

Kathleen Kositzky Crank

Recently a famous person admitted that her choice was indeed a choice. She took a lot of heat for it from the GLBT community . Can't remember her name right now.

 

[yolland]

I don't know, personally I'd choose to be optimistic where 14-year-olds are concerned and focus on the fact that they've got time yet to come into their own in their thinking. Kids that age can be earnest crusaders for a cause (sometimes almost comically so), and it's partly because they're beginning to understand what it means to make a case for your beliefs in a way kids just a couple years younger don't, and that's exciting. But it's rare for their political/ethical/theological/etc. views to be noticeably different from their parents'; their newfound abilities tend to get applied to defending what's familiar, they haven't actually made their belief systems their own yet; that takes time. Her thinking could still change dramatically, her parents' probably never will. What she's arguing is sad to hear, yes, but I wouldn't hold a 14-year-old fully accountable for it yet.

 

[corianderstem]

"It saddens me that there aren't more Christians here tonight," she said.

Hey, lady. I'm sure there were butt-loads of Christians there. But you probably didn't recognize them, since they were in support of same-sex marriage. They probably looked like a bunch of heathens to you.

 

[BEAL]

I think in another 30-50 years we'll have evolved on a social level where it won't matter about same sex marriage, and even christians will have changed enough to where they'll stop using the bible to call out that homosexuality as wrong/evil.....much like every christian chooses to ignore God's word of ordering anyone working on the Sabbath to be killed, or killing one's own family member if they speak of worshipping another God. Or on another level how slavery seems to be forgotten by most christians in their book.

So will homosexuality in time.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I sincerely hope so, BEAL.

Hey, lady. I'm sure there were butt-loads of Christians there. But you probably didn't recognize them, since they were in support of same-sex marriage. They probably looked like a bunch of heathens to you.

I was going to say, how does one explain those people, then?

Wonder what Jesus "Love thy neighbor" Christ would think about this issue, too?

As for that thing from that 14 year old...uh...wow.

 

[BEAL]

See that's one of my MANY, NUMERIOUS, INFINITE, issues with religion

We all are here 2000+ years later wondering what the son of God said. Times have changed, people and social norms have changed, yet we still clamour to a book and words written ages ago.

So would Jesus really still agree with the doctrine of the bronze age, or would even God itself be more evolved to how our culture works today? (my answer is there is no God, so therefore us humans have been responsible 100% for accepting lifestyles and gradually eliminating hateful bigotry, some more slowly than others)

It's going to be painful, but the next couple of decades we'll eventually get rid of this barbarian mindset, and then we'll focus on the next pointless social outrage!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Yes a 14 year old's thinking can still evolve and change, of course it can. The world would be a much more depressing place if it couldn't, if it didn't.

Honestly at this point I can't even remember being 14, but I do believe that I was a much different person. What makes it really sad to me is that she's probably trying to please her mother more than anything, and I think it will be very tough for her when she has to live and exist and work among gay people and people who don't think that way. Even worse for her will be when she tries to separate from her mother and to think independently.

 

[Aygo]

I think in another 30-50 years we'll have evolved on a social level where it won't matter about same sex marriage, and even christians will have changed enough to where they'll stop using the bible to call out that homosexuality as wrong/evil.....much like every christian chooses to ignore God's word of ordering anyone working on the Sabbath to be killed, or killing one's own family member if they speak of worshipping another God. Or on another level how slavery seems to be forgotten by most christians in their book.

So will homosexuality in time.

I'm not so sure about it.

Here in Europe we're watching a very fast and dangerous regression in the mentalities exactly like in the 1930's beggining of fascist and authoritary regimes.
For example, this week, the new right-wing spanish government decided to get back with the abortion law (approved 10/12 years ago I guess) and that ended criminalisation and stigmatization of women who had to make abortions. The new law gets back to the early standards.
Another example is the freedom of speech and freedom of press which has been severely threatned in Hungary and there are new and strong sings ofit again in Portugal (and I've heard about it in Czech Republic too, for example, not sure).

Mariano Rajoy said that he wants to end the gay-marriage law in Spain too, which means that the same state that recognized the marriage between two people, now it wouldn't recognize anymore.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the present right-wing portuguese government did the same here.

Social progresses, at least here, are never granted, there are always periods of heavy regression, like constant a come-and-go thing.

 

[BEAL]

I should state/clarify that I was mostly talking about the US in regards to this social issue.

I am finding it facinating and more concerning that Europe is actually regressing back to a facism in order to deal with a lot of the religious and social upheaval that seems to be going on.

 

[Irvine511]

I'm not so sure about it.

Here in Europe we're watching a very fast and dangerous regression in the mentalities exactly like in the 1930's beggining of fascist and authoritary regimes.
For example, this week, the new right-wing spanish government decided to get back with the abortion law (approved 10/12 years ago I guess) and that ended criminalisation and stigmatization of women who had to make abortions. The new law gets back to the early standards.
Another example is the freedom of speech and freedom of press which has been severely threatned in Hungary and there are new and strong sings ofit again in Portugal (and I've heard about it in Czech Republic too, for example, not sure).

Mariano Rajoy said that he wants to end the gay-marriage law in Spain too, which means that the same state that recognized the marriage between two people, now it wouldn't recognize anymore.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the present right-wing portuguese government did the same here.

Social progresses, at least here, are never granted, there are always periods of heavy regression, like constant a come-and-go thing.

good points. i think North American -- and especially in the US -- liberals tend to romanticize Europe as a bastion of liberalism, and to some extent that is true. we don't see the kind of influence of religion in Europe as we do in the US, and it appears as if "social issues" aren't nearly the identity flashpoint as they are over here. however, Europeans are in many ways *culturally* more conservative, in the ways that Americans are religiously more conservative. i think one becomes the same as the other, in practice, and it's great to get a more continental perspective as FYM is *so* heavily North American (with the occasional UK/Ireland/Aussie/Kiwi perspective).

 

[Aygo]

I should state/clarify that I was mostly talking about the US in regards to this social issue.

I am finding it facinating and more concerning that Europe is actually regressing back to a facism in order to deal with a lot of the religious and social upheaval that seems to be going on.

The religious issue, forgive me for what I'm gonna say, is a fraud.
It's an argument of the Catholic predominance and dominance over others. Every one knows that Europe always was multi-religion (specially in the East, North and eastern mediterranean).

Europe is dealing with a house on fire which has nothing to do with religious issues. Europe's nightmare is the need to rewrite the Social State/Welfare construction because of today's and future's demography, as well as the rebirth of old mutual hatreds, old stigmas, old preconceptions against each other, old imperial/authoritary tendencies that never really died... Mix it with hate and rebellion in Eastern Europe against the old russian domination of communism, leading neo-fascist and extreme-right movements to gain lots of power over there. Mix it with the Chicago School that was a failure in South America and that led to dictatorships and extreme poverty from the 1960's to the 1980's... And here you have the closest (and resumed) photograph of today's Europe.
It's only History repeating itself, nothing more.