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Old 07-28-2012, 12:43 PM   #946
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How about a moratorium on "there are no reasoned opinions that marriage is gender specific for a male and a female, only bigotry." Because that leads to "therefore you are not wrong, you are in fact a vile and loathsome hater." And logically to "One cannot be against same-sex marriage and be a decent human being."
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:54 PM   #947
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Speaking of haters: The Tolerance Enforcers - Mark Steyn - National Review Online

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The city’s mayor, Rahm Emanuel, agrees with the alderman: Chick-fil-A does not represent “Chicago values” — which is true if by “Chicago values” you mean machine politics, AIDS-conspiracy-peddling pastors, and industrial-scale black youth homicide rates. But, before he was mayor, Rahm Emanuel was President Obama’s chief of staff. Until the president’s recent “evolution,” the Obama administration held the same position on gay marriage as Chick-fil-A. Would Alderman Moreno have denied Barack Obama the right to open a chicken restaurant in the First Ward? Did Rahm Emanuel quit the Obama administration on principle? Don’t be ridiculous. Mayor Emanuel is a former ballet dancer, and when it’s politically necessary he can twirl on a dime.

Meanwhile, fellow mayor Tom Menino announced that Chick-fil-A would not be opening in his burg anytime soon. “If they need licenses in the city, it will be very difficult,” said His Honor. If you’ve just wandered in in the middle of the column, this guy Menino isn’t the mayor of Soviet Novosibirsk or Kampong Cham under the Khmer Rouge, but of Boston, Massachusetts. Nevertheless, he shares the commissars’ view that in order to operate even a modest and politically inconsequential business it is necessary to demonstrate that one is in full ideological compliance with party orthodoxy. “There is no place for discrimination on Boston’s Freedom Trail,” Mayor Menino thundered in his letter to Mr. Cathy, “and no place for your company alongside it.” No, sir. On Boston’s Freedom Trail, you’re free to march in ideological lockstep with the city authorities — or else. Hard as it is to believe, there was a time when Massachusetts was a beacon of liberty: the shot heard round the world, and all that. Now it fires Bureau of Compliance permit-rejection letters round the world.

Menino is happy to hand out municipal licenses to groups whose most prominent figures call for gays to be put to death. The mayor couldn’t have been more accommodating (including giving them $1.8 million of municipal land) of the new mosque of the Islamic Society of Boston, whose IRS returns listed as one of their seven trustees Yusuf al-Qaradawi. Like President Obama, Imam Qaradawi’s position on gays is in a state of “evolution”: He can’t decide whether to burn them or toss ’em off a cliff.

Once upon a time, Massachusetts burned witches. Now it grills chicken-sandwich homophobes. One day it’ll be something else. Already in Europe, in previously gay-friendly cities like Amsterdam, demographically surging Muslim populations have muted leftie politicians’ commitment to gay rights, feminism, and much else.

When Mayor Menino and Alderman Moreno openly threaten to deny business licenses because of ideological apostasy, they’re declaring their unfitness for public office. It’s not about marriage, it’s not about gays, it’s about a basic understanding that a free society requires a decent respect for a wide range of opinion without penalty by the state.
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:05 PM   #948
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Yes, and surprise! He was criticized for it by many people. So your "jab" of a comment yesterday was pointless.
The mayors of Chicago, Boston and S.F. were not criticizing or balancing one aspect of Chick-Fil-A while noting the philanthropic deeds they agree with, the jobs, tax revenue and unique product the company also provides. As Obama supporters must have done to vigorously disagree with him one this issue while still contributing to his campaign and casting a vote for him.

No, it was more "My way or the highway" wasn't it? Until their lawyers and advisors got to them anyway.
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:25 PM   #949
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What you consider leadership I'd call political self-interest.

Oh. Obama's the first one to do that, isn't he?

So?
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Old 07-28-2012, 06:20 PM   #950
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“Freedom of speech — everybody’s in favor of it as long as it’s what they want to hear,” he explained. “Well the only way that you have your freedom of speech is if you give other people freedom of speech. … This is just a bad idea and it’s not going to happen in New York City.”
I don't understand this arguement
none of the other mayors denies anyone free speech as far as I can tell

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Mr. Bloomberg went on to argue that blocking a business based on their political beliefs opens a potential slippery slope where liberal cities block conservative establishments and vice versa with conservative cities.
this I do agree with
so every mayor should pick their battle very, very carefully
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Old 07-28-2012, 06:37 PM   #951
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Originally Posted by INDY500

The mayors of Chicago, Boston and S.F. were not criticizing or balancing one aspect of Chick-Fil-A while noting the philanthropic deeds they agree with, the jobs, tax revenue and unique product the company also provides. As Obama supporters must have done to vigorously disagree with him one this issue while still contributing to his campaign and casting a vote for him.

No, it was more "My way or the highway" wasn't it? Until their lawyers and advisors got to them anyway.
I already specified my issues with their employment tactics. I will not be applauding a company for killing job opportunities once every seven days.
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:52 AM   #952
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How about a moratorium on "there are no reasoned opinions that marriage is gender specific for a male and a female, only bigotry."
What are these reason-based opinions? And, if your answer is going to revolve around parenting as opposed to marriage per se, what are the reason-based opinions that parenting is gender specific for a male and a female?
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I already specified my issues with their employment tactics. I will not be applauding a company for killing job opportunities once every seven days.
Not really an "employment tactic" to be closed one day a week, is it?
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:11 AM   #953
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Former Chick-fil-A employee Brenda Honeycutt is now suing the chain for wrongful termination. She alleges that she was the victim of gender discrimination.
it doesn't surprise me. when i worked there, it was clear if you weren't a white guy, you didn't move up at all. four years and i couldn't even move up one level, much less become a shift supervisor or something. yet guys younger than me (it was their first job too so it was not a matter of them having more experience) got promotions months after being hired.

not making myself out to be some victim though, just venting. this isn't the first time they've been accused of firing someone because they're a woman, gay, etc.
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:40 AM   #954
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
How about a moratorium on "there are no reasoned opinions that marriage is gender specific for a male and a female, only bigotry." Because that leads to "therefore you are not wrong, you are in fact a vile and loathsome hater." And logically to "One cannot be against same-sex marriage and be a decent human being."


come tell me to my face that i am less of a person than you are.

but really, the issue here is CFA and their hurt feelings and how difficult it is to dislike gay people and it's getting harder every day to be against denying gay people basic things the rest of the world takes for granted like the right to marry the person of your choice.

poor things.
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:44 AM   #955
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What are these reason-based opinions? And, if your answer is going to revolve around parenting as opposed to marriage per se, what are the reason-based opinions that parenting is gender specific for a male and a female?


how could it though? we know that one isn't required to be a parent to get married or vice versa (straight people have made sure of this), and we have decades of evidence that children with gay parents do just as well if not better than their hetero raised counterparts.

so i think even bringing up parenting as an issue is bogus.

i think all INDY has left is to say that it's necessary to discriminate against gay people so that straight people feel more special, and this helps us all because straight people need to feel more special so they will stop having illegitimate children all over the place. which is my fault.
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:58 AM   #956
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I had an argument the other day with someone who said homosexuality is a choice. I told him that it wasn't and he said "yeah well it's my fucking opinion and I'm allowed to have it, don't try and force your beliefs on me".

THAT ISN'T AN OPINION. IT'S AN INCORRECT FACT.
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Old 07-29-2012, 03:04 AM   #957
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that isn't an opinion. It's an incorrect fact.


omg stop taking away people's freedom of religion!
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Old 07-29-2012, 03:50 AM   #958
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illegitimate
That's the only reason I brought it up. An assertion is often made to the effect that one (or even "the") core function marriage serves is to officially privilege a particular context--public commitment to a shared legal status entailing both rights and obligations--for childrearing. The notion that married parents are categorically, quantifiably "better" is clearly bogus, but to be fair, it's difficult to explain the existence of civil marriage at all without acknowledging the role of this perceived core function. Is the mere prospect of two people in love remaining together permanently really of such social value, in and of itself, as to warrant extensive government-provided incentives? Maybe the answer is "yes," but if so that's a fairly new argument, and while I could take a stab at making it, I doubt it'd qualify as "reason-based." (Note, I'm speaking here only about why civil marriage exists in general, not whether everyone who's ever participated in it has or "should" have availed themselves of the "legitimized" parenting opportunities--i.e., the "no refusing a public good on the basis of arbitrary characteristics" legal argument, which tends to ignore the question of why this is a public good. The fact that anyone who can marry gains access to this socially privileged parenting context would thus be the issue, not whether everyone who can marry chooses to do so.) So I don't think it's necessarily bogus to request "reason-based" arguments against same-sex parenting, if that's how the anti-SSM argument is being framed. Besides, I'd rather see the whole of what I'm arguing against.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:05 AM   #959
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I read in the paper this morning that Chick Fil A has donated to American Family Association and similar groups. That's a big negative for me, but I still don't think you can stop them from doing business because of that. I don't want to support that kind of thing, but I want to have the choice not to. The people are supposed to have the power. Businesses rise and fall due to consumer choice (and outside economic factors, obviously) and I think an educated consumer is the best person to decide how they fare.
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:10 PM   #960
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I read in the paper this morning that Chick Fil A has donated to American Family Association and similar groups.

they also make them lunch at conferences.

i'm waiting to hear about the time that Obama made sandwiches for Tony Perkins, since INDY thinks they're the same.
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