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Old 06-26-2003, 03:40 PM   #16
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If that was not against the law, then I would assume they would.

Laws are necessary both nationally and internationally. If there was international law that stated our military could not use the practices they were using, I have to assume they would not.

Law is the only abiding force here (although you may as a moral person suggest that morality and humanity are higher forces.)

During warfare, however morality and humanity are not always the driving factors.

We are at war, we need information from people who will not give it.

I do not know what else to say.
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Old 06-26-2003, 03:43 PM   #17
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As I said before, sidestepping morality during wartime is not an acceptable response in my opinion. If we justify torturing just one person to save the life of another, then as I see it, you have denigrated "life" as a value and you've lost your moral authority.
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Old 06-26-2003, 04:55 PM   #18
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
do the police hold suspects for over a year without charging them, letting them see a lawyer or anything?
Are the police at war with a Non-Governmental organization?
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Old 06-26-2003, 04:56 PM   #19
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I would hate to be hated here, but I have to agree fully with what Dread has said.
Ouizy, am I reading to much into this or are you saying I am hated?

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Old 06-26-2003, 05:00 PM   #20
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Last time I checked, it took Congress to issue a declaration of actual war. Have we declared war on Al Quaida? Do we know if these people are even part of that organization? I'm truly asking...I was out of the country when the whole thing happened.
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:04 PM   #21
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Maybe we could discuss the place of international law and international judiciary to keep all parties accountable. It seems to me that it's related. I would hope that if we feel that right and truth is on our side, then we have no reason to fear and nothing to hide. Instead, our government has been active in bullying, coercing and buying off other nations to keep our nation alone immune from the international rule of law. I think that's a big mistake that is going to come back to haunt us.
I stated that I am concerned about the legnth of time the people are being held. However, we ARE working within the legal framework of the Geneva Conventions. Like it or not this type of war is not defined in there. What is clear is that as I stated and Lilly stated, we need to "modernize" the Geneva Convention to deal with this.

And this does not mean I am against HUman Rights either. WE are talking about a group that does not obey the rules. They wear no uniforms, they kill innocent civilians, and do not bat an eye. THey have not negotiated a cease fire or a surrender.

Peace
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:07 PM   #22
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Ouizy, am I reading to much into this or are you saying I am hated?

no no no - you misunderstood me completely. It had nothing to do with you - I was kind of saying that pro-war nationalism is kind of hated around here and pro-human rights no matter what is shined upon.

by agreeing with some of the things you said, I felt like there would be more people rallying agains those things.

I am probably not making sense as I am tired, but I agree with what you have said in this debate.
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:08 PM   #23
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Last time I checked, it took Congress to issue a declaration of actual war. Have we declared war on Al Quaida? Do we know if these people are even part of that organization? I'm truly asking...I was out of the country when the whole thing happened.
On September 14, 2001 congress authorized the President the use of force to bring to justice those responsible for 9/11.
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:10 PM   #24
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no no no - you misunderstood me completely. It had nothing to do with you - I was kind of saying that pro-war nationalism is kind of hated around here and pro-human rights no matter what is shined upon.


Great thread!!!!! Sula!!!!
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:10 PM   #25
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And this does not mean I am against HUman Rights either. WE are talking about a group that does not obey the rules. They wear no uniforms, they kill innocent civilians, and do not bat an eye. THey have not negotiated a cease fire or a surrender.
While, I understand what you're saying and would agree that the conventions need updating, in the meantime I don't consider sinking to THEIR level to be an acceptable method. We can do better.
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:13 PM   #26
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On September 14, 2001 congress authorized the President the use of force to bring to justice those responsible for 9/11.
Could they possibly be any more vague? I'm sorry, but this is precisely the kind of open-ended power gifting that bothers the heck outta me. I always thought that one of the nifty things about American democracy was the old "checks and balance" thingy.
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:14 PM   #27
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It saddens me that anyone would imply being supportive of human rights is a bad thing. Aren't we all people? Don't we all deserve basic rights? Doesn't a young person in Afghanistan have just as much right as I, as a young person living in the UK, have to education, healthcare, safety, freedom from fear or oppression?

IMO, the idea that because the constitution doesn't apply overseas, or that the Geneva Convention is out of date just aren't enough to justify torture. And remember: we're not only talking about members of Al Qaeda here - innocent people have and are being detained and possibly tortured by the US and UK. That's wrong: it's not unpatriotic and it's not unAmerican to say so.

Defending human rights shouldn't ever be looked down on.
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:22 PM   #28
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Defending human rights shouldn't ever be looked down on.
And I do not think anyone here has looked down on you. I may disagree with you, but I respect you.
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:23 PM   #29
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Could they possibly be any more vague? I'm sorry, but this is precisely the kind of open-ended power gifting that bothers the heck outta me. I always thought that one of the nifty things about American democracy was the old "checks and balance" thingy.
It is the standard use of force vote. They never declare war anymore. You missed my argument with Sting on this before the war started. I felt that in the case of Iraq a formal declaration was necessary.

GTG....Charity work tonight....PEace
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:30 PM   #30
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yeah, i did miss all that discussion. (busy sitting around thinking philosophy in the Alps ) In any case, interesting discussion as always. peace to you as well.
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