Saddam's Sons Very Likely Killed in battle today!

[Klaus]

MissVelvetDress_75: great link, the comments of the readers are verry interesting.

Sting: Mr. Rumsfeld allready corrected US-General Ricardo Sanchez. Out of the yesturday mentioned "Find, kill or capture" he created "Find, capture or kill". That's a huge difference.
Also the first reactons of Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair made them look a little more barbaric to me.
So much to the efficiency at the top

I didn't blame the US forces that the 4 people didn't surender, i'm not a member of a special troop, i didn't see the situation and because of that i don't know how impossible it was to get them out alive. I can comment this one maybe in a few months when there are more facts avail. in the public.


BonoVoxSupastar: yes, i wasn't happy about that niveau either, maybe someone else can tell us some other reasons besides that after the 3rd time the US announced that the 2 sons are dead, they had to prove it somehow so that the people wouldn't start to laugh about the pentagon.

Let's be glad that they didn't show the pictures of the young boy.

I liked his comment

I view the releasing of these photos as another example of the double standards of the Bush administration. The rise in anti-Americanism around the world can be attributed to such callous reactionary tactics by an administration that, while preaching it's moral authority, falls into the same trappings as those it criticizes.
Mark R., US

Klaus

 

[verte76]

Those pictures were reproduced on my ISP's headlines. Ugh. They're all over. There's something uncivilized about this. I don't like it at all.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Actually, I would like ya'll to consider something about releasing the photos that may cause you to understand it a little bit better.

The Hussein boys were madmen that controlled Iraq with a reign of terror. People were scared to say or do anything that the boys might consider "treasonous" because the Husseins would as soon kill people as look at them. Now the power, but so is most of Iraq. They have no TV or radio. They are still scared because they think the Husseins are still alive. The coalition is going to distribute these photos throughout the country, to get the word out that hope is indeed alive.

I know that no one here would have any sympathy for these monsters who used to grab any woman they want at the time and rape them. But some of what I've read sure sounds like it.

 

[verte76]

'80's, I know these guys were a couple of real 's. Hell, Uday was so brutal that Saddam himself threw him in jail for awhile--and then restored him to power. When the Iraqi soccer team lost in the Olympics he had them tortured. They were in the same league as Ceceauscu and Milosevic. I'll be damned if I have any sympathy for them. I'm glad that they'll never reign in terror again. I'm just not sure the government should have released these grisly pictures to the press. PR-wise I'm not sure it sends quite the right message, and as someone has suggested it may have been a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Sooner or later the Iraqis would have realized that they, in fact, are gone.

 

[verte76]

Iraqis Still Want Proof Saddam Sons Are Dead

Updated 8:17 PM ET July 24, 2003


By Andrew Marshall

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - An Iraqi engineer demanded the bodies of Saddam Hussein's sons be dragged through the streets of Baghdad to prove their deaths, despite U.S. assurances they were killed this week in the northern city of Mosul.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said in Washington on Thursday he had ordered the release of U.S. photographs of the corpses of Uday and Qusay Hussein to help convince frightened Iraqis that Saddam's reign was truly over.

Iraqi television broadcast pictures of the blood-spattered, bearded faces of the two, but many Iraqis were unable to see them due to power cuts plaguing the country.

In Baghdad, the engineer, who gave his name only as Muhammad, echoed widespread skepticism among Iraqis that Saddam's feared sons had indeed been killed in a shootout with U.S. troops at a villa in Mosul on Tuesday.

"We will believe they are dead when Uday's and Qusay's bodies are tied to cars and dragged through the streets so everybody can see them," Muhammad said.

Businessman Khalil Ali said photographs meant nothing.

"They should have been hung up on poles in a square in Baghdad so all Iraqis could see them....," he said.

At least one newspaper planned a special edition carrying the photographs on Friday, when most newspapers do not publish on the Muslim holy day.

A spokesman for the U.S.-led civil authority in Iraq said journalists would be allowed to film the bodies for themselves on Friday to dispel any doubts the photographs were authentic.

Rumsfeld told a Pentagon news conference in Washington he felt the release of the death pictures was the right thing, outweighing any sensitivity over showing the corpses.

The U.S. military was outraged when Arab television channels broadcast pictures of dead and captured American soldiers during the war that toppled Saddam.

"BROUGHT TO JUSTICE" -- BUSH

President Bush said the brothers had been "brought to justice."

"These two sons of Saddam were responsible for hundreds and hundreds of people being tortured and maimed and murdered," Bush said on a visit to Michigan.

"And now the Iraqi people have seen clearly the intent of the United States to make sure that they are free and to make sure that the Saddam regime never returns again to Iraq," he said.

One of the pictures shows the bearded, shaven-headed Uday lying on a plastic sheet with a gaping wound obliterating part of his nose and upper lip. A hand in a purple rubber glove holds the head to turn it toward the camera.

Another shows Qusay, Saddam's younger son and heir apparent, with his eyes closed and mouth hanging open. Trickles of blood have congealed inside one of his ears.

Military officers said Uday appeared to have been killed by a bullet in the head, but it was not yet known whether he had been shot by U.S. soldiers or had committed suicide.

Washington hopes their deaths will tighten the noose around Saddam and demoralize guerrillas who have killed 44 American soldiers in attacks since Bush declared major combat over on May 1.

But five soldiers have been killed in ambushes since the deaths of Uday, 39, and 37-year-old Qusay.

Four of them were killed near Mosul and were members of the 101st Airborne Division, whose soldiers staged the raid on the villa where the brothers were hiding.

Dubai-based Al Arabiya television broadcast footage of a group of masked men with automatic rifles who said they were members of Uday's notorious Saddam Fedayeen militia and vowed to press on with a jihad, or holy war, against U.S. forces.

The brothers were tracked down after a tip-off from an Iraqi informant who is expected to scoop the two $15 million rewards offered for information leading to their death or capture.

 

[anitram]

I know that no one here would have any sympathy for these monsters who used to grab any woman they want at the time and rape them. But some of what I've read sure sounds like it.

I have no sympathy for them at all. I wouldn't even call them animals, they are lower forms of life.

I just also don't need to see their bashed in heads anytime I open up a news site. That's all. I understand the Iraqi people and others too, probably want to see it, I just don't really understand the morbid curiosity our media has expressed, but I don't understand a lot of things about our media as it is.

 

[Rono]

'80's, I know these guys were a couple of real 's. Hell, Uday was so brutal that Saddam himself threw him in jail for awhile--and then restored him to power. When the Iraqi soccer team lost in the Olympics he had them tortured. They were in the same league as Ceceauscu and Milosevic. I'll be damned if I have any sympathy for them. I'm glad that they'll never reign in terror again. I'm just not sure the government should have released these grisly pictures to the press. PR-wise I'm not sure it sends quite the right message, and as someone has suggested it may have been a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Sooner or later the Iraqis would have realized that they, in fact, are gone.

It is a violation of the Geneva concention, the use of pictures of prisoners of war and dead for propaganda is forbidden,..Rumsfeld knows it because he was the first one to say that Saddam is a beast because he did show pictures of killed American soldiers on tv.

 

[Klaus]

anitram:
No matter what a man (woman) does, they will still be human beings and should be treated as humans

But i fully agree to your comment about the media


Rono:
seems he allready forgot, now he calles them "unwritten laws". Maybe we should fax him a copy so that he can read again what he quoted a few months ago

Klaus

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think the law concerning use of pictures is only applicable in reference to soldiers, not leaders.

 

[80sU2isBest]

The Geneva Convention law in question refers to prisoners of war. The Hussein boys were never taken into custody while they were alive. They were never prisoners of war. Here are some of the definitions of "prisoner of war" from the Geneva Convention. There are more listed at the web site below:

http://193.194.138.190/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

 

[Klaus]

80sU2isBest:

I'm pressy sure Saddams sons had a military rank -> soldiers.

So it was to show dead US soldiers as long as they killed them in action?

I guess i have to take a closer look to the Genova Conventions again.

Klaus

 

[verte76]

It is a violation of the Geneva concention, the use of pictures of prisoners of war and dead for propaganda is forbidden,..Rumsfeld knows it because he was the first one to say that Saddam is a beast because he did show pictures of killed American soldiers on tv.

OK, that's what I thought. The media has gone nuts with these pictures, and not all Iraqis believe they are dead. Maybe it's a fear thing. I don't know what it's like to live in a terrorist state. But it seems like Rumsfeld actually knows he's committing a double standard. Why does this not surprise me?

 

[BVS]

Screw the technicalities. It's a double standard and plain immoral. There are many other ways to prove their death. It has nothing to do with sympathy or forgetting about what they have done.

And it seems this method isn't even working for everyone.

"Inside the tent, U.S. officials said it was standard practice to use morticians putty to prepare bodies for viewing and was not intended to fool the Iraqi people.


But while it may be common in the United States, the move is unheard of in the Arab world. That could affect Washington's efforts to quash Iraqi conspiracy theories that the bodies are not in fact those of the once powerful and hated sons of Saddam, who is believed to be still in hiding in Iraq.


U.S. officials have already played down the importance of visually identifying the men, saying their dental and medical records positively identified the brothers. Four top Saddam aides have also made positive identification, they say.


"You can make anyone look like anyone else," one U.S. official said, insisting the medical evidence was compelling. "

here's the whole article:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030725/ts_nm/iraq_sons_journalists_dc_3

 

[80sU2isBest]

It's not a double standard...theer are big differences:

1)Rank and file soldiers are in the war as a service to their country, because their commander has told them to go. Teh Hussein boys ARE those commanders.

2)Soldiers are generally not people who rape anyone they want and slaughter and torture thousands of people at the drop of a hat. Saddams' sons are that and even more. They gave no one any dignity when they ruled with their satanic ways, so why should their dead corpses be given any dignity now that they are dead?

 

[nbcrusader]

What are the odds the Hussein boys are kickin' back with 72 black eyed virgins?

 

[kobayashi]

both incidents, to me, break the contentious part of the geneva convetion. the geneva convention, as far as i know, doesnt offer an evil clause whereby the victims rights disappear because they have, during their life, attained a certain level of evilness.

so while both break the convetion, given other circumstances, it could be said the U.S. action is more justifiable. but im sure they recognized that and expected it.

edited to say i personally have no reason to believe the brothers are dead. in truth, what to believe, is somehow meaningless though i care.

 

[Klaus]

80sU2isBest:

1) Kusai was afik commander of the Republican Guards
Udai was commander of the Fedajins
-> they served their country, also i'm completely aware that their father was the dictator of this country.

2) Commanders aren't generally people who rape and slaughter - also it is not typical to show dead people who rape and slaughter worldwide on tv

Don't try to make it look like it was normal, it wasn't

Klaus

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

They gave no one any dignity when they ruled with their satanic ways, so why should their dead corpses be given any dignity now that they are dead?

Because otherwise the people who treat their bodies with no dignity are stooping to their level.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[verte76]

Because otherwise the people who treat their bodies with no dignity are stooping to their level.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I agree. I think my government is making a mistake. The important thing is that the Iraqi people know that they are dead. This isn't necessary, so I don't think they should have done it.

 

[80sU2isBest]

80sU2isBest:
2) Commanders aren't generally people who rape and slaughter - also it is not typical to show dead people who rape and slaughter worldwide on tv
Don't try to make it look like it was normal, it wasn't
Klaus

In point 2, I was contrasting the actions of soldiers and the Hussein boys, not soldiers and commanders.

What am I trying to make look like it's normal? I don't quite understand.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Because otherwise the people who treat their bodies with no dignity are stooping to their level.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Fizzing, do you really think that releasing the photos of the dead bodies of two vicious killers is stooping to the level of actually being a vicious killer? Really?

 

[Rono]

Fizzing, do you really think that releasing the photos of the dead bodies of two vicious killers is stooping to the level of actually being a vicious killer? Really?

the winners decide what the borders of civilzation are.

 

[BVS]

Yes. They're realeasing the photos to prove they are dead, to show their intent to the rest of regime, and to lure family out of hiding. It's the same scare tactics that Saddam used.

And regardless of all that, as evil as these men were, they were still someone's father or uncle, brother, etc.

This administration has claimed the higher moral ground and to be working for good...but when killing their target they hold it up like a prize.

 

[ThatGuy]

So how exactly should the administration prove that the Hussien brothers are dead? They're dealing with a very skeptical Iraqi public who would rather see the bodies dragged through the streets as proof. I understand the objections and that two wrongs don't make a right, but what's the alternative?


*edited for glaring typos

 

[BVS]

So how exactly should the administration prove that the Hussien brothers are dead? They're dealing with a very skeptical Iraqi public who would rather see the bodies dragged through the streets as proof. I understand the objections and that two wrongs don't make a right, but what's the alternative?


*edited for glaring typos

Dental records, fingerprints whatever they used to determine the true identity.

And acutally these bodies aren't going to be recognizable by the average citizen anyway. They just blood.

 

[nbcrusader]

The alternative is to believe whatever the government tells us....

 

[verte76]

So how exactly should the administration prove that the Hussien brothers are dead? They're dealing with a very skeptical Iraqi public who would rather see the bodies dragged through the streets as proof. I understand the objections and that two wrongs don't make a right, but what's the alternative?

They could give the evidence from the dental records or whatever to the newspapers. Many Iraqis read newspapers. Even Iraqis who've seen the pictures aren't convinced because the pictures are so bloodied up.

 

[ThatGuy]

I suppose the question comes down to, "Why are they showing the bodies off, anyway?" The two leading aswers would be a) to prove their deaths to a skeptical Iraqi public and b)shameless grandstanding by Bush. I tend to think it's mostly a with a little bit of b. I imagine that those who believe showing the bodies is wrong think it's mostly or all b.

 

[ThatGuy]

Originally posted by verte76 Even Iraqis who've seen the pictures aren't convinced because the pictures are so bloodied up.

Really? How are they supposed to look after dying in hail of gunfire? I'd be unconvinced if the bodies weren't bloodied.

 

[verte76]

Really? How are they supposed to look after dying in hail of gunfire? I'd be unconvinced if the bodies weren't bloodied.

Actually I just saw a blurb on my ISP's news that they'd "fixed up" the bodies to more closely resemble the brothers. These were shown to reporters. It's also being reported that some Arabic Moslems are "shocked" at the display of corpses because some of them believe that it's a violation of Islamic law. It quoted someone in Saudi Arabia who was really upset that the U.S. had done this. I understand we're not exactly doing this to please Moslems in Saudi Arabia but it may be offensive to their fellow Sunnis in Iraq. Considering the problems we're having with some of the Iraqi Sunnis maybe this isn't a great idea. Hell, I don't know.