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Old 07-21-2003, 06:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


So there is left: Oil and strategic interests

Klaus
I thought the first of these had been debunked many times over: if all Bush wanted was the oil, he'd just tell the UN to drop the sanctions and deliver some spiel about how the sanctions are inhumane, 500,000 children have died because of lack of medical supplies, etc. Then he wins both ways -- he gets the oil and he looks like a "humanitarian".
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Old 07-21-2003, 06:56 PM   #17
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Originally posted by anitram


As for why the thread went the way it did, I believe "we were on his side" is a borderline inflammatory statement, because we were not all on the same side and I'll be damned if somebody else dictates to us who was and was not on God's side. Just saying.
I would suggest that Bush's (and 80's and others') notion that "God was on our side" is offensive because a priori you disagree with Bush himself (because you think he made selective use of evidence, shunned diplomatic efforts by others, etc.) The fact that he claims God on his side makes him more offensive to you.

The respected pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought that God wanted him and others to assassinate Hitler. Seriously.

I'm not going to analyze in detail the similarities and differences between the two examples here; I just wanted to point out that the notion that God is on somebody's side in a war or that God might want someone to kill someone else is of itself not inherently evil or misguided.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:00 PM   #18
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Re: Saddam More Dangerous Defeated According to INtelligence Community

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
[Q]But declassified portions of a still-secret National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) released Friday by the White House show that at the time of the president's speech the U.S. intelligence community judged that possibility to be unlikely. fact, the NIE, which began circulating Oct. 2, shows the intelligence services were much more worried that Hussein might give weapons to al Qaeda terrorists if he were facing death or capture and his government was collapsing after a military attack by the United States.[/Q]

Now this is interesting!!!!!

Where are the WMD?????????

Why didn't the President take this into account??????http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hptop_tb

Because the other consequences of overthrowing Saddam were thought to outweigh the possibility of WMDs being leaked to terrorists, perhaps? (Although if Bush had thought this, you could argue that he shouldn't have emphasized the WMD threat the way he did.)
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:03 PM   #19
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speedracer: I just mentioned the oil again because Sting2 (not to be known to bash the current US government) mentioned the Iraqi oil several times as legitime interest of the US.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer

The respected pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought that God wanted him and others to assassinate Hitler. Seriously.
You can't say it in such a short and easy way.
Mr. Bonhoeffer was fully aware that he did something evil when trying to kill Hitler.
Bonhoefer said: "To Follow Jesus means to work for Peace and Justice"
He accepted for himself that Pacifism wasn't enough, that he had to do something. He didn't accept any colaterale damage, he was willing to risk his own life, not the life of other guys.

From my point of view it is completely unacceptable to compare outstanding bad people like Hitler to "average horrible dictators" like Mr Hussein - and it's also unacceptable to compare outstanding good people to average presidents who were not willing to give their life but to accept the loss of other lifes (soldiers and foreign civlists).

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Old 07-21-2003, 07:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


From my point of view it is completely unacceptable to compare outstanding bad people like Hitler to "average horrible dictators" like Mr Hussein - and it's also unacceptable to compare outstanding good people to average presidents who were not willing to give their life but to accept the loss of other lifes (soldiers and foreign civlists).
I completely refrained from making a detailed comparison; I just wanted to isolate the "God is on our side" part of the argument. As you stated, the veracity of the claim that "God is on our side" depends completely on the specific circumstances.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:35 PM   #22
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And even Hitler thought that god was on his side.. he could even "proof" it, because he survived all the assasination attempt by coincidence or - as he saw it - with gods help
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


I would suggest that Bush's (and 80's and others') notion that "God was on our side" is offensive
read it again, speedracer. I never said God was on our side.

I said we were on His side. there is a big difference.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
80s, how on earth do you feel you have the grounds to make that claim?
Did you forget, Sula? According to you, I think I know everything. If I think I know everything, then in my mind, I am qualified to make any statement I want.

Actually, all I meant by that statement is that the US did the right thing. Doing the right thing is "being on God's side" at least for that one act.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


read it again, speedracer. I never said God was on our side.

I said we were on His side. there is a big difference.
What precisely is this difference? It is not clear to me.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:58 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
80's has merely stated this is his belief, right or wrong in someone's opinion is not grounds to start picking on the individual.
Thank you very much, Angela. You've always replied respectfully, even when you adamantly disagree.

Some others do have a difficult time living up to your high standards, however.
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


What precisely is this difference? It is not clear to me.
The difference actually speaks to the nature of one's relationship with God.

In order to be in a right relationship with God, one doesn't make his plans and then hope that God goes along with them. On the contray, in a right relationship with God, one puts his faith in God and goes along with what God says: this the distinction between "God being on our side" and "us being on God's side".
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest



Actually, all I meant by that statement is that the US did the right thing. Doing the right thing is "being on God's side" at least for that one act.
That is what I thought you meant, and I don't see how the invocation of the Almighty should affect the evaluation of the merits of Bush's decision to go to war.

I don't think anyone has enough insight into Bush's mind to decide whether (1) he thought he was following God's command or (2) he was acting of his own accord and hoping God would "agree" with him. Speculation on this issue doesn't form a particularly persuasive argument.
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest




Actually, all I meant by that statement is that the US did the right thing. Doing the right thing is "being on God's side" at least for that one act.
Do you realize the other side can make this same argument?

In my mind it cheapens God.

I do not believe God recognizes national boundaries or goals, but only what is in one's heart.

I was listening to a religious speaker this weekend.
He said when one claims God for nationalistic goals it is a form of idolatry.
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

In order to be in a right relationship with God, one doesn't make his plans and then hope that God goes along with them. On the contray, in a right relationship with God, one puts his faith in God and goes along with what God says: this the distinction between "God being on our side" and "us being on God's side". [/B]
Then it would be fair to say that God was not on the side of the little boy we all saw pictures of that lost his arms and was burned from the waste down or other children killed and maimed?

All religious terrorists state the "God is on their side" including Osama. Any use of God for an excuse or help in killing his children, regardless of the reason, to me is the highest form of blasphemy.
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