Russian Plane Crashes

[A_Wanderer]

Allright, as it now stands Two Russian Airliners have crashed within 3 minutes of eachother and a bomb has gone off at a Moscow Bus Station. Witnesses to the crash saw an explosion on board the Passenger plane before it crashed. This has killed some 90 people, this is not good.

Now lets not be too hastly to jump to conclusions, until every fact is on the table this is all speculation. However the Chechen elections are coming up soon, the tactic of hijackings and more particuarly suicide attacks is a long used tool of terrorists. It is not inconcievable that these events are connected.

Lets just hope that this is an isolated fluke crash of two planes from the same country at practically the same time, if it is a terrorist strike and if it is done by Islamists this may not be limited to Russia, considering Bojinka and the other means of attack this could be part of something bigger. Islamic Terrorism is a very dangerous problem and it cannot be appeased, if this proves to be terrorist related and to be connected to the Chechens and/or Islamist terror networks it could become worse than it allready is.

If this is Islamic terrorism Muslims in Russia are a certain to face severe backlash over this, lets just hope it isnt and that nobody gets hurt because of what they believe, we could see a vast contrast between how well Muslims were treated after 9.11 and how a less tollerent society might.

Pray for peace if you are religious, hope for the best if your not - violence is not good.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Little bit of an update, the second plane was flying to the Black Sea resort city of Sochi, where Putin was vacationing, this is another little bit that may be related.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...u=/ap/20040825/ap_on_re_eu/russia_plane_crash

 

[Salome]

 

[Angela Harlem]

 

[A_Wanderer]

What the bloody hell, I cannot see anyone elses posts, this is downright wierd.

 

[Angela Harlem]

i learned the art of posting blank tags, from a veteran.

ie .... and then close it of course, post nothing in your tags.

 

[A_Wanderer]

My eyes have been opened

 

[Leeloo]

This is awful. When I heard about the first one crashing and the second one missing I was afraid they might have their own 9-11 and something might crash into the Kremlin. I don't think there's much question it's the Chechens again. What a tragedy.

 

[A_Wanderer]

But thats the rub aint it, Chechens, Palestinians, or Saudies it doesn't really make much of a difference, all these groups have commonality and they make up the larger Islamist Terror web, this is a world war of the globalization age and it knows no boundaries.

 

[AcrobatMan]

sad news.

Terrorism is flourishing because of apathy shown.

And those who speak condone it or try to rationalise it.

 

[AcrobatMan]

sad news.

Terrorism is flourishing because of apathy shown.

And those who speak condone it or try to rationalise it.

Not to forget there are lots and lots of supporters and even more sympathisers.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

 

[nbcrusader]

Russia Probes Cause of Two Plane Crashes

Russia's main intelligence agency, however, said it had found no evidence of terrorism in initial investigations at the crash sites. The Federal Security Service, or FSB, said it was investigating other possibilities such as technical failures, the use of poor quality fuel, breaches of fueling regulations and pilot error, its press service told The Associated Press. Rain and thunder was reported in the regions where both crashes occurred.

 

[RockNRollDawgie]

It may be a set of tragic accidents nothing more, but the Chechens can very well be behind this.
It's their style of attack.

 

[zoney!]

Anyone seen anything on the age and maintenance of the airplanes involved?

 

[Klaus]

zoney!:
Can't answer your question but
Chechen Rebbels supporting Aslan Baschadow said that they weren't behind that attack.
And in German Tagesschau they mentioned that chances are high that it's a technical reason or (not the first time) bad fuel (they sometimes add water to the fuel in Russia
To those of you who can read it this site might be of interest for you:

http://www.s7.ru/1047/info.shtml
(Airline HP)

But it's interesting to see how prejustice works - some people know exactly who must be responsible and they don't wait for facts.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

To those of you who can read it this site might be of interest for you:

http://www.s7.ru/1047/info.shtml
(Airline HP)

Do you speak Russian, Klaus?

 

[AvsGirl41]

But thats the rub aint it, Chechens, Palestinians, or Saudies it doesn't really make much of a difference, all these groups have commonality and they make up the larger Islamist Terror web, this is a world war of the globalization age and it knows no boundaries.

Actually, there is quite a bit of difference.

The Chechens are not part of the Islamist Terror web. Their argument is with Russia, plain and simple. They want to seperate and control the oil pipeline, Russia wants to keep them and the oil. There is a sizable Russian population in Chechnya who is determined to remain united wth Russia.

It was simply a territorial/nationality dispute, until recently, when Chechens discovered that they would gain more press if they made it into a religious issue. So yes, now we have Muslim Chechen terrorists.

But all it really comes down to is Chechen independence and oil--not jihad, world war or Islamic fundamentalism. I don't believe they are being funded or supported by any Islamic terrorist organizations, I'm not sure anyone does.

Given the economic state Russia is currently in, (where there are cases of starvation in their own military due to lack of funds) it would not be altogether surprising to find that the planes simply crashed on their own. It would be a freak occurance, but poor Russia seems prone to those.

I haven't updated myself since reading the initial story, so perhaps there's now more evidence I'm unaware of.

 

[Klaus]

FizzingWhizzbees
no, but some friends of mine do. They are language tallents and they start to learn a new language everytime they are bored

 

[A_Wanderer]

Chechens as a nation of people are not connected and their right to self determination is important however when it comes to some armed groups, operational cooperation and links it is highly connected. Throughout the 1990's young men could train from Chechnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan and many other parts of the world. This type of terrorism is global, and it is highly connected.

 

[Klaus]

Russian police found traces of explosives

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3604134.stm

Traces of explosive have been found amid the wreckage of one of two Tupolev airliners that crashed on Tuesday, say Russian officials.

The FSB security service said at least one of the almost simultaneous crashes was a "terrorist act".

Details of the discovery came after an Islamic group claimed responsibility for the crashes in a website statement.

 

[AcrobatMan]

The FSB security service said at least one of the almost simultaneous crashes was a "terrorist act".

given that one of them is a TERRORIST ATTACK..the chances of other one being not a TERRORIST ATTACK ranges between 1 in 80000 to 1 in 800000 depending on the plane conditions.

 

[STING2]

Actually, there is quite a bit of difference.

The Chechens are not part of the Islamist Terror web. Their argument is with Russia, plain and simple. They want to seperate and control the oil pipeline, Russia wants to keep them and the oil. There is a sizable Russian population in Chechnya who is determined to remain united wth Russia.

It was simply a territorial/nationality dispute, until recently, when Chechens discovered that they would gain more press if they made it into a religious issue. So yes, now we have Muslim Chechen terrorists.

But all it really comes down to is Chechen independence and oil--not jihad, world war or Islamic fundamentalism. I don't believe they are being funded or supported by any Islamic terrorist organizations, I'm not sure anyone does.

Given the economic state Russia is currently in, (where there are cases of starvation in their own military due to lack of funds) it would not be altogether surprising to find that the planes simply crashed on their own. It would be a freak occurance, but poor Russia seems prone to those.

I haven't updated myself since reading the initial story, so perhaps there's now more evidence I'm unaware of.

The Chechens have been engaging in terrorism since the conflict started in 1994. In the peace agreement of 1996, the Chechens were given the opportunity to have a vote on independence within ten years. But in 1999, the Chechens murdered hundreds of civilians in Moscow with the bombing of Apartments. Chechen forces then began attacking Russians in communities outside of their province.

Russia is now a democracy and Chechens should join the political forum to resolve their issues instead of murdering innocent Russian Women and Childern. The Chechen terrorist have made life in Chechnya a living hell the past 10 years. Just as the United States is not going to let go of land where Native Americans live, Russia is not going to let go of Chechnya. Instead of tearing up the country with violence, Chechens would be able to make a better life for themselves and their childern by engaging in Non-violent actions and joining the political process in Russia which is now a democracy. Terrorism will only make things worse for them.

Members of Al Quada have been in Chechnya and it is rumored that Bin Ladin himself has visited there in the years prior to 9/11.

 

[AvsGirl41]

The Chechens have been engaging in terrorism since the conflict started in 1994. In the peace agreement of 1996, the Chechens were given the opportunity to have a vote on independence within ten years. But in 1999, the Chechens murdered hundreds of civilians in Moscow with the bombing of Apartments. Chechen forces then began attacking Russians in communities outside of their province.

Russia is now a democracy and Chechens should join the political forum to resolve their issues instead of murdering innocent Russian Women and Childern. The Chechen terrorist have made life in Chechnya a living hell the past 10 years. Just as the United States is not going to let go of land where Native Americans live, Russia is not going to let go of Chechnya. Instead of tearing up the country with violence, Chechens would be able to make a better life for themselves and their childern by engaging in Non-violent actions and joining the political process in Russia which is now a democracy. Terrorism will only make things worse for them.

Members of Al Quada have been in Chechnya and it is rumored that Bin Ladin himself has visited there in the years prior to 9/11.

I don't believe I ever said I agreed with the Russian policy, or with Chechen terrorism. I was simply giving some background to a situation that is far more complex than "They are Muslims, and therefore terrorists and part of an Islamic global web."

Russians have also committed some real atrocities in Chechnya (murdering innocent women and children, too) and have hardly sought diplomatic solutions, either. Neither side is blameless in this conflict and since I am neither Russian, nor Chechen, I certainly will not argue for one side.

However, I will point out that it is *rumor* that bin Laden visited Chechnya, just as it is conjecture how much of their terrorism is funded by Al-Quada. The Russians say that there's a link, largely because they want the U.S. to approve their actions in Chechnya, which we have condemned in the past. Chechens insist that there isn't--and that if there is funding, that it is a small group who no one, however fervently nationalist or Muslim, really wants to align with. Even Russian officials have abruptly backtracked and said there's no evidence for Al-Quada.

The evidence is conflicting, to say the least, it is difficult to find neutral sources. It seems no one wants to discuss what is really going on in that region. Just as with us and Iraq, everyone's got their own interests to look out for.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I was simply giving some background to a situation that is far more complex than "They are Muslims, and therefore terrorists and part of an Islamic global web."

Eh? If that was in reference to my post I would strongly disagree, I never ever said that all Muslims are terrorists or that because they are Muslims they are terrorists, that is just misquoting me. What I did say and I stand by it is that global terrorism is highly connected set or organizations of varied political aims, some of these aims overlap and there is a degree of cooperation between some of these groups.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Eh? If that was in reference to my post I would strongly disagree, I never ever said that all Muslims are terrorists or that because they are Muslims they are terrorists, that is just misquoting me. What I did say and I stand by it is that global terrorism is highly connected set or organizations of varied political aims, some of these aims overlap and there is a degree of cooperation between some of these groups.

It was a slight reference to your post, yes, but it was more a statement (or prediction, if you will) on where I thought this thread was going.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Duly noted, thankyou - this thread should focus more on the aims behind this awful incident, terrorism in all its forms is bad and must not be rewarded, Russia unlike Israel does not give a stuff about what the international community thinks of its operations and they will probably take some very questionable operations on, those Spetsnaz guys dont mess around and I would not like to be in their way during an operation.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

simply another thing to prove that islamic extremisim is the biggest threat to world peace today... not the bush administration, as 91% of the press would have you believe.

 

[A_Wanderer]

A school has been taken over in Russia around North Ossetia, it really takes brave men to take over a school.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040901_174.html

 

[AvsGirl41]

I saw this story a few minutes ago. My prayers are with the families held in that school.

I really feel for the Russian people. They just never seem to catch a break there.