Russia-France, Reasons they dont want to go to War

[bonoman]

Allright, much has been said about the reason the US want to go to war. Oil, WMD, crimes againist Iraqi people. But what are the main motivation of France, Russia and Germany being dead againist it?

Could it be that they are peace loving people againist all wars, or really think the inspections are going to bring forth a de-militarized Iraq?

Well I do believe they feel this way, but is this the only reason they oppose war? Are there other motivations to oppose war?


I was watching the news the other day and it showed the intretests France and Russia has in Iraq. I cant remember the news channel and i looked around (not very hard) for an article and couldnt find one but this is what i remember.

Russia has a LARGE stake in devolping oil fields in Iraq post sanctions.

France has a LARGE stake in producing oil in Iraq post sanctions.

There was more but i cant remember them. But should we examine the financial reasons these countries are backing Iraq like we are examining the US reasons?

If anyone has any info on these please post them, i am intrested in what people from both sides of the arguement think about that.

 

[nbcrusader]

I think the answer is in your post bonoman - $$$$$$$$

 

[verte76]

I think the answer is in your post bonoman - $$$$$$$$

Yes. When my sister was in Kiev this past September I tried keeping up with the Ukrainian news, which was not easy because I don't read a word of either Russian or Ukrainian (yes, they are separate languages, they even have different alphabets). They have interests in the Middle East, too. Sometimes they conflict with others. But the disputes all do seem to involve $$$$.

 

[Salome]

as far as I'm able to tell it's about money and/or domestic politics
it has very little to do with a quest for peace

 

[Klaus]

So why do you think Germany is against that war?
They buy their oil mostly from British companies, some oil from French companies.

So a war would reduce our Oil costs a little (if you want to follow this oil logic)

Could it be - think about it for a moment - that they really have more interests in a peaceful sollution (i'm NOT talking about ignoring the problem) than in economy?

Klaus

 

[Screaming Flower]

Could it be - think about it for a moment - that they really have more interests in a peaceful sollution (i'm NOT talking about ignoring the problem) than in economy?

it's a lovely thought but highly doubtful.

 

[Dreadsox]

as far as I'm able to tell it's about money and/or domestic politics
it has very little to do with a quest for peace

 

[Gickies Gageeze]

well motives aside, a quest for peace is always better than a quest for war, yes?

 

[Salome]

So why do you think Germany is against that war?

domestic politics
Schroeder won a lot of votes because of his anti-war campaign
even if war would be the right decision he isn't able to admit to that anymore

 

[Salome]

well motives aside, a quest for peace is always better than a quest for war, yes?

not nesecarely
a quest for the right solution without alternative motives would be best

 

[verte76]

well motives aside, a quest for peace is always better than a quest for war, yes?

Oh, of course. I don't want to be too cynical and claim the whole thing is $$$. Having said that I do think there are a few money interests involved. Supposedly some people in Ukraine are making money from some ties in Middle Eastern countries. This stuff was in the news when my sister was in Kiev. I didn't quite understand the whole thing, they translated the stuff from the Kiev newspapers and some of the reports weren't clear.

 

[bonoman]

Allright, much has been said about the reason the US want to go to war. Oil, WMD, crimes againist Iraqi people. But what are the main motivation of France, Russia and Germany being dead againist it?

Could it be that they are peace loving people againist all wars, or really think the inspections are going to bring forth a de-militarized Iraq?

Well I do believe they feel this way, but is this the only reason they oppose war? Are there other motivations to oppose war?

Klaus re-read this. Please

 

[Gickies Gageeze]

not nesecarely
a quest for the right solution without alternative motives would be best

dear diary,

i would like to remind you i said "better" as opposed to "best."

 

[Klaus]

Salome:

He is able to change his mind, since when do Politicans care about the promisses they made in election campaigns?

Remember what George Walker B. promissed and what he did.

bonoman:
So my answer was: maybe there isn't.
I guess being on the US side would bring lots of positive things for the German Government, Some millions of $ maybee, maybee the chance to become a permanent member of the UN security council. Well i think they have no chance to become a permanent member there as long as they are running a non-US course there.

So.. from my point of view it's highly irrational from the economic and political infuence point of view, to do what Schroeder does. And therefore it might be possible that Schroeder does it because he thinks G.W.B. way of "problem solving" will lead to chaos in the world.

So my conclusion:
I'm affraid his primary motivation is "no war as long as there are other options"

Klaus

 

[anitram]

France and Russia are jockeying for position in the new world order.

As for Germany, frankly with their war history of the past century, I'm not sure why anybody would be quick to criticize them if they are weary about heading off to the battle field.

 

[Gickies Gageeze]

why, what has germany done in the past 100 years?

 

[Ace Rimmer]

A Russian was speaking on the news last night and he reckoned the only reason Russia is opposing war with Iraq is because Iraq owes Russia Billions. There must be more to it than that I would have thought but I do think the main reason countries are opposing war is not a moral stance but an economic stance

 

[Klaus]

Gickies Gageeze:

Germany was responsible for 2 Worldwars
After the fall of the 3rd Reich some of us learned the lesson history made for us history.

Ace Rimmer:
I'm curious, will debts be droped if there is a regime change?
That would be a great way for the so called "3rd world" to get rid of all their depts too wouldn't it?

Klaus

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Gickies Gageeze:

Ace Rimmer:
I'm curious, will debts be droped if there is a regime change?
That would be a great way for the so called "3rd world" to get rid of all their depts too wouldn't it?

Klaus

Well if this Russian is to be belived apparently so, Or maybe he just thinks it will be harder to recover the money under a new regime.

 

[Klaus]

Ace: who was that russian, was he a politican, a journalist, someone from the street?

 

[Dreadsox]

I read this somewhere too....about the Russians.

 

[Klaus]

Dreadsox:

do you remember if it was a official statement or a personal opinion?
As i mentioned before, it dosn't make sense to me, debts aren't canceled, just because the government changes.

Klaus

 

[Dreadsox]

Klaus,

I have been actively looking. My brain is frazzled...and I cannot remember. I think I can rule out official statement.

I will keep searching. It will come to me...probably when I am far away from my computer..LOL

 

[bonoman]

Thats a great point Klaus.

Would the debts be dropped after a regime change. Well if the US were to go alone with Uk and they were to have a hand in the re-building process of Iraq i would think Bush would have his hand out for money as well. He wouldnt be doing this if he didnt see some sort of financial gain, like the French and Russians (i really dont think the Germans are doing this for money soley, but i'd be intrested in seeing if there is any gains in no war)

Do you think Bush would want to pay out countries that opposed his war then want their money back. Wouldnt it be ironic if Germany can looking for money owed after they opposed a war.

 

[gvox]

I have no delusions about Russia or France being against this thing for solely pure peaceful reasons.

I fully believe that they see just how much at the mercy of the US they will be if the US goes in there and controls those oil fields, and they are quite right in defending their own economic position.

That is why I predict this will be World War 3.

Hey, didn't the Bible predict that "Armaggedon" would be fought in the middle east?



*wondering just how far the valley of Megiddo is from Iraq*

 

[Gickies Gageeze]

Gickies Gageeze:

Germany was responsible for 2 Worldwars
After the fall of the 3rd Reich some of us learned the lesson history made for us history.

my comment was dripping with sarcasm. remember that world war 2 history thread i started a while back?

 

[brettig]

my comment was dripping with sarcasm. remember that world war 2 history thread i started a while back?

no i don't

 

[elfyx]

Economic Factors? This is a Banking War.

Okay, nobody's innocent here. *Everybody* stands to gain and/or lose in this war, including the French, Germans, Russia, and definitely the U.S.

I do think there are some moral positions in all of this, but lets not delude ourselves either. The economic factor is overwhelming. In fact, it is my opinion that along with the obvious zionist agenda, the main reason for this war is economic, and economic globalism. I briefly detailed some of this in another post a while back. Basically, the U.S. economy is in a world of hurt; more than the financial guys are letting on (though Greenspan is starting to let hints slip through). It is no secret financial topbrass are playing financial collapse games with the FED and the Council on Foregin Relations in NY right now. The world all over, from China to Russia and more are dropping the U.S. dollar from their holdings like there's no tomorrow. They are all moving towards the Euro. OPEC is moving to the Euro. Iraq already has. The U.S. can't simply print Euros. Many financial analysts simply don't see the Federal Reserve System surviving a financial collapse. The FED is a house of cards; a ponzai scheme if you will, which has essentially played itself out. Only more massive debt can prop this system up. Of course we are seeing this in Bush's insane economic planning. Nevertheless, the U.S. will go bankrupt if this isn't changed soon, or it doesn't achieve worldwide economic dominance. And I hate Bush for this; he's betting the future of an entire country on his Pax Americana ambitions. We won't have much to worry about if the U.S. dominates the world economy, which is, of course, very much tied to the U.S. economy. The very heart of governments and financial institutions worldwide are jockeying for position in this banking war. The U.S. and Britain are on one side of it. The first step towards this goal is the control of Iraq. It's been documented, folks. France, Germany, and Russia are on the other side of this banking war and want no part of world-wide American capotolistic dominance. Oil plays a key role in all of this, of course, which is one reason why Iraq is so key to PNAC's ambitions. The world is currently stretched at peak capacity. When the numbers are added up, the evidence indicates that such a peak for conventional oil will arrive around 2005, and about five years later for all hydrocarbons, assuming no radical change in demand. Uh oh.

Yes, Russia and France have long-term oil contract with Iraq. So do many French, British, and other international companies. They shouldn't have to worry about thier contracts, however, they know what the U.S. was essentially told by an ex-Iraqi (defector I believe): That, should there be regime change in Iraq, all existing oil contracts can be null and voided, and war restitutions can be appropriated from Iraqi oil. Of course, just GUESS who is all lined up for this various array of new contracts? Could it maybe, perhaps, just >possibly< be Bush, his father, Cheney, the rest of his administration which is steeped in the oil industry, his corporate "friends", and other interests? This is a no brainer, is in fact, documented, and the rest of the freaking world sees it. France and Russia are pretty miffed about seeing their contracts essentially stolen right from underneath of them, while already having invested billions. We should not forget all of the financial incentives the Bush administration, his friends, and family will make off this war. The answer is that they will make millions upon millions. The whole thing is so sickeningly corrupt, it's not even in the slightest funny.

Nor, I think, should we forget all of the economic "incentives" the U.S. are paying countries for their support. Of course, we are essentially buying out the support of states, and even would try the votes of the security council. When approached by this, Ari Fleischer was literally laughed off stage by the press when he insisted Bush would do no thing. Hehe.

 

[diamond]

France=Macphisto/a..a tired old PopStar, wondering is she is still relevant

 

[elfyx]

France=Macphisto/a..a tired old PopStar, wondering is she is still relevant

that is one of the most callous, arrogant, insulting, unnecessary, and disgusting things I've heard recently.

i guess when we start questioning the relevancy of our fellow human beings, we've definitely lost something very important to us all.