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Old 03-14-2003, 11:35 AM   #61
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yes..and condi rice is the bearded woman
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Old 03-14-2003, 12:30 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
Exactly...the trend in europe these days seems to want to point out the US's mistakes over the past half century


but let's examine this history.




Africa .....almost 100 percent european created problem..dividing nations along artificial borders and plundering natural resources..this was also done in the middle east.....


ppl accuse the US of waging an oil war...well that's nothign compared to what europe has done in the last half century

The US may have created saddam...but europe created IRAQ by carving the mid east up under artifical borders.


now...Pakistan India....created by teh british...and perhaps the hottest conflict around in that it ahs teh ability to kill so many ppl so quickly



Israel palestine....need i say more???



Europe's idea of a "diplomatic" solution seems to throughout history involve the oppression of other races....So forgive me if I fail to believe in teh innocence of europe in these matters....they are in fact responsible for the situation in africa which will result in more deaths than anything the human race has seen yet.


Europes politcial track record may in fact prove to be the largest killer in the history of mankind.....so forgve me If I cut my own country a little slack.



People just dont' understand..The US didn't create this mess....we mostly inherited it.
Basically I agree, except of your last sentence. "The US" (and I´m not generally talking about Americans here) did their best to continue this mess. I agree though, that the colonies go back to a time when European countries had more power than the United States. On the other hand, I think that the U.S. wouldn´t be as rich as they are now, without benefitting from the help of former slaves, and without slave trade.

Since WWII I think the pattern of "Who is Superpower" has shifted a little, even though one must acknowledge that there are lots of conflicts that have nothing to do with the U.S., like the Falkland conflict f.e. (take U.K.) or Tibet (take China).

Sure, all nations have their wars and crimes, their criminal leaders and their brave soldiers.

Its just that the U.S. is very good at engaging in or creating conflicts in the last 40, 50 years. I don´t know a European country which trains soldiers in 70 states worldwide.

But this is not meant as a finger pointing "Baaah you´re the worst!" - there is no sense in that. Its just stating facts.

Yes, Klaus, I agree, there can be more than one responsible for "it". Several European nations are responsible for slave trade, and the United States aren´t innocent either - after their creation, which historically happened a few decades after slave trade started, I think.
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Old 03-14-2003, 01:22 PM   #63
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I'm not even reffering to the slave trade....in 1885 and 1886..and after that...after europe carved the continent of africa up..it systematically plundered it.



Almost every western country is guilty of slavery..I dont' deny that...but...let's take a common reference point.


While europe was carving up other countries and carving them..the United states wasn't...and yet...we're the imperialists....



Calling the United states an imperial power ....is an insult to all the european powers....who really were imperial powers.
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Old 03-14-2003, 02:15 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
I'm not even reffering to the slave trade....in 1885 and 1886..and after that...after europe carved the continent of africa up..it systematically plundered it.

Almost every western country is guilty of slavery..I dont' deny that...but...let's take a common reference point.

While europe was carving up other countries and carving them..the United states wasn't...and yet...we're the imperialists....

Calling the United states an imperial power ....is an insult to all the european powers....who really were imperial powers.
Go Arun V!
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Old 03-14-2003, 02:44 PM   #65
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Arun V:

" At one point france and germany were selling iraq equipment at 4 x the standard price..why..because it was the only deal iraq could get....if the structure of these other deals"

When, which deal?

"at the very least these deals should be restructured"

The danger of "restructuring" deals is that it might lead to a "united fruit company" style of rearanging deals.

So, if the new government isn't getting preasure from differnt sides it's a nice idea. If there is preasure it will forever get a "colony taste" - we should be aware that this could destroy the morale legitimation of this government and might have serious consequences.
When i look at the UN these days i'm affraid both sides are willing to put preasure on the new regime


"Also sanctions will be lifted once regime change or disarmement are accomplished."

not regime change OR disarment, just disarment should be the reason for lifting sanctions. Why do you think a new regime will do better with those WMD's?


"But restructuring deals in a post saddam iraq does make sense."

You are right, but you have to take care not to destroy more than you gain.
You might loose some millions of $ if you don't rearange them (compared to the total costs of war nothing). But if you destroy the credibility of the regime by that (looking like "yet another installed dictator") you might loose the whole investment. And this time i'm not just talking about the $ for the war but also about the blood of the US and the Iraqi soldiers.


"Also similar arrangements were done after WW2 with germany and japan.....and those worked out more than fine."

I'm not sure what you are referencing here. Germany had no much deals with other countries which had to be canceled.
And the few companies which werent completely destroyed, like degussa continued their contracts like before.


"also...in fact it was NOt restructuring germany's economy after WW1..and in fact making it worse that led to the rise of hitler and WW2...and that versaille treaty was another brilliant european innovation in foreign policy...."

The problem was not the "not restructuring" it was the reperations costs. Germany had to pay huge - really huge amounts of money per year to par the war costs of the winners" Because of that german economy collapsed, extremists like hittler who had the "easy solution": "everything which goes wrong in this country is because of the evil zionists". I'm still unsure why fools believe in such a sick "easy solution" - but obviousely they did and humans are willing to beLIEve again and again, wiping away all logic, just happy that everything will be allright after we fought these ***

I'm sorry that was a little too long and offtopic but i get angry every time i think about idiots like the nazis and the fools who are willing to believe such a cheap propaganda.

Klaus
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Old 03-14-2003, 02:53 PM   #66
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Yes, European imperialist powers created alot of the problems around the globe today. That was when they had more power than anyone else on the planet. When the power balance went to the United States they too created problems. No one is innocent. Politics is never innocent stuff. Power corrupts, no matter who has it. That's a human thing, not a European or American thing.
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Old 03-14-2003, 02:55 PM   #67
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is the E.U.
trying to become the new 'Russia'?
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Old 03-14-2003, 03:03 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Exactly. I support those two sentences 100%.

Africans who live in constant poverty, can´t afford food and only can dream of getting HIV drugs, have to bring their claims to the court.

United Kingdom, France, Spain, The Netherlands, Portugal and other nations who benefitted from slave trade, one of the biggest crimes in worldwide history, have to pay big time+interests.
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Old 03-14-2003, 03:09 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
I'm not even reffering to the slave trade....in 1885 and 1886..and after that...after europe carved the continent of africa up..it systematically plundered it.



Almost every western country is guilty of slavery..I dont' deny that...but...let's take a common reference point.


While europe was carving up other countries and carving them..the United states wasn't...and yet...we're the imperialists....



Calling the United states an imperial power ....is an insult to all the european powers....who really were imperial powers.
Also.
Exept the part,...the United states wasn`t....and yet,.....we`re the imperialists.....What happend to the native Americans ?
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Old 03-14-2003, 03:19 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
is the E.U.
trying to become the new 'Russia'?
I'm fascinated. What are you talking about Diamond?
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Old 03-14-2003, 03:36 PM   #71
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Precisely the US is trying to make France and or EU the new USSR (EVIL EMPIRE) we got to keep building those Weapons of Mass Destruction to fight EVIL!

Fear = US citizen compliance = Government free hand to do its own bidding without questions
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Old 03-14-2003, 04:07 PM   #72
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If we are lucky the EU will become a rival superpower.

Unilateral actions by one superpower make for a very unsafe world.

Diplomacy and cooperation serve all parties better.

Checks and balances is a great concept. It was written into the US constitution. However, we have an executive who has usurped more power and wants to domineer the others branches of government.

The UN charter provides for some balances, it is not perfect but much better than nothing.

Bush and Company are nonplused that they can not usurp power over the UN.


They were successful in getting parts of the constitution made irrelevant and assume they can be successful with the UN. The phony scare tactics have not been as successful with the worlds population as they were here in the US.

Come on world, straighten up and fly right.

Oh well.
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Old 03-14-2003, 04:37 PM   #73
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It's pretty funny how Rummy called France, and Germany an irrelevant "Old Europe." What an ass. There are a lot of problems (and corruption) still with the E.U. but they are positioning themselves very well and very urgently to counter the U.S. weight in the world. The U.S. may villify them, or even offhandedly discount them, but we'll see who laughs last when the U.S. goes bankrupt under its unsustainable debt and fiat currency. The E.U. realised the absolute need and urgency to return to a gold standard for their currency in order to protect themselves and counter the growing threat of a Pax Americana. But it's all part of the ongoing banking war, and falls right in line with the goals of the Trilateral Commission, so who knows, it all could have been planned from the beginning.
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Old 03-14-2003, 05:04 PM   #74
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verte76:

Quote:
Power corrupts, no matter who has it. That's a human thing, not a European or American thing.
Words of wisdom!

Diamond:

"the new russia" ? what do you want to tell me? That we are becoming Stalinistic, that we want to build more Weapons of Mass destruction then the US?

The EU isn't a country, not even a political union. It's economical union, founded by France and Germany, with other important members like G.B.

Don't see "communistnaziterrorists" everywhere where someone dosn't agree 100% to G.W.Bush

Klaus
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Old 03-14-2003, 05:13 PM   #75
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Originally posted by diamond
a circus?
More like a sick joke God's playing on us.
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