Russia-France, Reasons they dont want to go to War
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hiphop
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Arun V said:
Basically I agree, except of your last sentence. "The US" (and I?m not generally talking about Americans here) did their best to continue this mess. I agree though, that the colonies go back to a time when European countries had more power than the United States. On the other hand, I think that the U.S. wouldn?t be as rich as they are now, without benefitting from the help of former slaves, and without slave trade.
Since WWII I think the pattern of "Who is Superpower" has shifted a little, even though one must acknowledge that there are lots of conflicts that have nothing to do with the U.S., like the Falkland conflict f.e. (take U.K.) or Tibet (take China).
Sure, all nations have their wars and crimes, their criminal leaders and their brave soldiers.
Its just that the U.S. is very good at engaging in or creating conflicts in the last 40, 50 years. I don?t know a European country which trains soldiers in 70 states worldwide.
But this is not meant as a finger pointing "Baaah you?re the worst!" - there is no sense in that. Its just stating facts.
Yes, Klaus, I agree, there can be more than one responsible for "it". Several European nations are responsible for slave trade, and the United States aren?t innocent either - after their creation, which historically happened a few decades after slave trade started, I think.
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I'm not even reffering to the slave trade....in 1885 and 1886..and after that...after europe carved the continent of africa up..it systematically plundered it.
Almost every western country is guilty of slavery..I dont' deny that...but...let's take a common reference point.
While europe was carving up other countries and carving them..the United states wasn't...and yet...we're the imperialists....
Calling the United states an imperial power ....is an insult to all the european powers....who really were imperial powers.
Almost every western country is guilty of slavery..I dont' deny that...but...let's take a common reference point.
While europe was carving up other countries and carving them..the United states wasn't...and yet...we're the imperialists....
Calling the United states an imperial power ....is an insult to all the european powers....who really were imperial powers.
hiphop
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Arun V said:
Go Arun V! 
Klaus
Refugee
Arun V:
" At one point france and germany were selling iraq equipment at 4 x the standard price..why..because it was the only deal iraq could get....if the structure of these other deals"
When, which deal?
"at the very least these deals should be restructured"
The danger of "restructuring" deals is that it might lead to a "united fruit company" style of rearanging deals.
So, if the new government isn't getting preasure from differnt sides it's a nice idea. If there is preasure it will forever get a "colony taste" - we should be aware that this could destroy the morale legitimation of this government and might have serious consequences.
When i look at the UN these days i'm affraid both sides are willing to put preasure on the new regime
"Also sanctions will be lifted once regime change or disarmement are accomplished."
not regime change OR disarment, just disarment should be the reason for lifting sanctions. Why do you think a new regime will do better with those WMD's?
"But restructuring deals in a post saddam iraq does make sense."
You are right, but you have to take care not to destroy more than you gain.
You might loose some millions of $ if you don't rearange them (compared to the total costs of war nothing). But if you destroy the credibility of the regime by that (looking like "yet another installed dictator") you might loose the whole investment. And this time i'm not just talking about the $ for the war but also about the blood of the US and the Iraqi soldiers.
"Also similar arrangements were done after WW2 with germany and japan.....and those worked out more than fine."
I'm not sure what you are referencing here. Germany had no much deals with other countries which had to be canceled.
And the few companies which werent completely destroyed, like degussa continued their contracts like before.
"also...in fact it was NOt restructuring germany's economy after WW1..and in fact making it worse that led to the rise of hitler and WW2...and that versaille treaty was another brilliant european innovation in foreign policy...."
The problem was not the "not restructuring" it was the reperations costs. Germany had to pay huge - really huge amounts of money per year to par the war costs of the winners" Because of that german economy collapsed, extremists like hittler who had the "easy solution": "everything which goes wrong in this country is because of the evil zionists". I'm still unsure why fools believe in such a sick "easy solution" - but obviousely they did and humans are willing to beLIEve again and again, wiping away all logic, just happy that everything will be allright after we fought these ***
I'm sorry that was a little too long and offtopic but i get angry every time i think about idiots like the nazis and the fools who are willing to believe such a cheap propaganda.
Klaus
" At one point france and germany were selling iraq equipment at 4 x the standard price..why..because it was the only deal iraq could get....if the structure of these other deals"
When, which deal?
"at the very least these deals should be restructured"
The danger of "restructuring" deals is that it might lead to a "united fruit company" style of rearanging deals.
So, if the new government isn't getting preasure from differnt sides it's a nice idea. If there is preasure it will forever get a "colony taste" - we should be aware that this could destroy the morale legitimation of this government and might have serious consequences.
When i look at the UN these days i'm affraid both sides are willing to put preasure on the new regime
"Also sanctions will be lifted once regime change or disarmement are accomplished."
not regime change OR disarment, just disarment should be the reason for lifting sanctions. Why do you think a new regime will do better with those WMD's?
"But restructuring deals in a post saddam iraq does make sense."
You are right, but you have to take care not to destroy more than you gain.
You might loose some millions of $ if you don't rearange them (compared to the total costs of war nothing). But if you destroy the credibility of the regime by that (looking like "yet another installed dictator") you might loose the whole investment. And this time i'm not just talking about the $ for the war but also about the blood of the US and the Iraqi soldiers.
"Also similar arrangements were done after WW2 with germany and japan.....and those worked out more than fine."
I'm not sure what you are referencing here. Germany had no much deals with other countries which had to be canceled.
And the few companies which werent completely destroyed, like degussa continued their contracts like before.
"also...in fact it was NOt restructuring germany's economy after WW1..and in fact making it worse that led to the rise of hitler and WW2...and that versaille treaty was another brilliant european innovation in foreign policy...."
The problem was not the "not restructuring" it was the reperations costs. Germany had to pay huge - really huge amounts of money per year to par the war costs of the winners" Because of that german economy collapsed, extremists like hittler who had the "easy solution": "everything which goes wrong in this country is because of the evil zionists". I'm still unsure why fools believe in such a sick "easy solution" - but obviousely they did and humans are willing to beLIEve again and again, wiping away all logic, just happy that everything will be allright after we fought these ***
I'm sorry that was a little too long and offtopic
but i get angry every time i think about idiots like the nazis and the fools who are willing to believe such a cheap propaganda.Klaus
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
Yes, European imperialist powers created alot of the problems around the globe today. That was when they had more power than anyone else on the planet. When the power balance went to the United States they too created problems. No one is innocent. Politics is never innocent stuff. Power corrupts, no matter who has it. That's a human thing, not a European or American thing.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
is the E.U.
trying to become the new 'Russia'?
trying to become the new 'Russia'?
Rono
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:
Rono
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Arun V said:
Also.Exept the part,...the United states wasn`t....and yet,.....we`re the imperialists.....What happend to the native Americans ?
FizzingWhizzbees
ONE love, blood, life
diamond said:is the E.U.
trying to become the new 'Russia'?
I'm fascinated. What are you talking about Diamond?
deep
Blue Crack Addict
Precisely the US is trying to make France and or EU the new USSR (EVIL EMPIRE) we got to keep building those Weapons of Mass Destruction to fight EVIL!
Fear = US citizen compliance = Government free hand to do its own bidding without questions
Fear = US citizen compliance = Government free hand to do its own bidding without questions
deep
Blue Crack Addict
If we are lucky the EU will become a rival superpower.
Unilateral actions by one superpower make for a very unsafe world.
Diplomacy and cooperation serve all parties better.
Checks and balances is a great concept. It was written into the US constitution. However, we have an executive who has usurped more power and wants to domineer the others branches of government.
The UN charter provides for some balances, it is not perfect but much better than nothing.
Bush and Company are nonplused that they can not usurp power over the UN.
They were successful in getting parts of the constitution made irrelevant and assume they can be successful with the UN. The phony scare tactics have not been as successful with the worlds population as they were here in the US.
Come on world, straighten up and fly right.
Oh well.
Unilateral actions by one superpower make for a very unsafe world.
Diplomacy and cooperation serve all parties better.
Checks and balances is a great concept. It was written into the US constitution. However, we have an executive who has usurped more power and wants to domineer the others branches of government.
The UN charter provides for some balances, it is not perfect but much better than nothing.
Bush and Company are nonplused that they can not usurp power over the UN.
They were successful in getting parts of the constitution made irrelevant and assume they can be successful with the UN. The phony scare tactics have not been as successful with the worlds population as they were here in the US.
Come on world, straighten up and fly right.
Oh well.
It's pretty funny how Rummy called France, and Germany an irrelevant "Old Europe." What an ass. There are a lot of problems (and corruption) still with the E.U. but they are positioning themselves very well and very urgently to counter the U.S. weight in the world. The U.S. may villify them, or even offhandedly discount them, but we'll see who laughs last when the U.S. goes bankrupt under its unsustainable debt and fiat currency. The E.U. realised the absolute need and urgency to return to a gold standard for their currency in order to protect themselves and counter the growing threat of a Pax Americana. But it's all part of the ongoing banking war, and falls right in line with the goals of the Trilateral Commission, so who knows, it all could have been planned from the beginning.
Klaus
Refugee
verte76:
Words of wisdom!
Diamond:
"the new russia" ? what do you want to tell me? That we are becoming Stalinistic, that we want to build more Weapons of Mass destruction then the US?
The EU isn't a country, not even a political union. It's economical union, founded by France and Germany, with other important members like G.B.
Don't see "communistnaziterrorists" everywhere where someone dosn't agree 100% to G.W.Bush
Klaus
Words of wisdom!
Diamond:
"the new russia" ? what do you want to tell me? That we are becoming Stalinistic, that we want to build more Weapons of Mass destruction then the US?
The EU isn't a country, not even a political union. It's economical union, founded by France and Germany, with other important members like G.B.
Don't see "communistnaziterrorists" everywhere where someone dosn't agree 100% to G.W.Bush
Klaus
Scarletwine
New Yorker
diamond said:a circus
More like a sick joke God's playing on us.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
France Russia and Germany = GREED.
Their motives have nothing to do w humanity.
Their motives lie in oil contracts and billions of dollars.
They will be exposed after the conflict whilst you libs dream up excuses for them..
thank u-
Diamond
Their motives have nothing to do w humanity.
Their motives lie in oil contracts and billions of dollars.
They will be exposed after the conflict whilst you libs dream up excuses for them..
thank u-
Diamond
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Diamond,
Do you not think that Germany has a perfectly reasonable and valid reason to not want to join any wars? They have a history of not sending their troops to fight since WW2, and I believe that criticizing them by invoking greed is baseless. Simply put, this country has consistently not wanted to enter wars in the last 60 years, and they have a perfectly justifiable reason. Why do you want to push them into it?
I can understand lumping France and Russia into on group even, but Germany has a whole different set of circumstances.
Do you not think that Germany has a perfectly reasonable and valid reason to not want to join any wars? They have a history of not sending their troops to fight since WW2, and I believe that criticizing them by invoking greed is baseless. Simply put, this country has consistently not wanted to enter wars in the last 60 years, and they have a perfectly justifiable reason. Why do you want to push them into it?
I can understand lumping France and Russia into on group even, but Germany has a whole different set of circumstances.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
anitram-
perhaps youre correct.
lets wait and see.
db9
perhaps youre correct.
lets wait and see.
db9
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
oh btw-
when will France decide to build nice cars?
Diamond
when will France decide to build nice cars?
Diamond
Klaus said:Arun V:
" At one point france and germany were selling iraq equipment at 4 x the standard price..why..because it was the only deal iraq could get....if the structure of these other deals"
When, which deal?
"at the very least these deals should be restructured"
The danger of "restructuring" deals is that it might lead to a "united fruit company" style of rearanging deals.
So, if the new government isn't getting preasure from differnt sides it's a nice idea. If there is preasure it will forever get a "colony taste" - we should be aware that this could destroy the morale legitimation of this government and might have serious consequences.
When i look at the UN these days i'm affraid both sides are willing to put preasure on the new regime
"Also sanctions will be lifted once regime change or disarmement are accomplished."
not regime change OR disarment, just disarment should be the reason for lifting sanctions. Why do you think a new regime will do better with those WMD's?
"But restructuring deals in a post saddam iraq does make sense."
You are right, but you have to take care not to destroy more than you gain.
You might loose some millions of $ if you don't rearange them (compared to the total costs of war nothing). But if you destroy the credibility of the regime by that (looking like "yet another installed dictator") you might loose the whole investment. And this time i'm not just talking about the $ for the war but also about the blood of the US and the Iraqi soldiers.
"Also similar arrangements were done after WW2 with germany and japan.....and those worked out more than fine."
I'm not sure what you are referencing here. Germany had no much deals with other countries which had to be canceled.
And the few companies which werent completely destroyed, like degussa continued their contracts like before.
"also...in fact it was NOt restructuring germany's economy after WW1..and in fact making it worse that led to the rise of hitler and WW2...and that versaille treaty was another brilliant european innovation in foreign policy...."
The problem was not the "not restructuring" it was the reperations costs. Germany had to pay huge - really huge amounts of money per year to par the war costs of the winners" Because of that german economy collapsed, extremists like hittler who had the "easy solution": "everything which goes wrong in this country is because of the evil zionists". I'm still unsure why fools believe in such a sick "easy solution" - but obviousely they did and humans are willing to beLIEve again and again, wiping away all logic, just happy that everything will be allright after we fought these ***
I'm sorry that was a little too long and offtopic
Klaus
yes but still klaus...let's then remove germany...let's take japan as a post ww2 example...there was siginificant change in the japanese financial structure during the time following WW2.
Also...germany and france did sell prohibited parts to iraq at 4 x teh intl price....gimme some time to find the article.
All i'm saying in this thread...that the United states...if in fact are wrong..would be commiting perhaps the most minor infraction of any western power taking into account the scope of history.
If europe wants to say " look we've made out mistakes and this is why you should go into iraq"....I'll except that..but right now....in my eyes europe is a prostitute claiming to be virgin when it comes to protecting the welfare of other races.
Honestly...if The Us takes iraq..India should take pakistan the next day...as pakistan poses a confirmed and genuiune threat to india and a bigger threat to world security than iraq...
Pakistan has nukes...it's government is endangered by fundamentalist elements.....yet the Us is in bed with them
the bush administration is a sad joke. it can't uniformly apply it's policies. now can it seem to genuinly assess real threats to world security
let's face it ppl...it's not a coincidence all the major al qaeda arrests occur in pakistan.
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diamond said:France Russia and Germany = GREED.
Their motives have nothing to do w humanity.
Their motives lie in oil contracts and billions of dollars.
They will be exposed after the conflict whilst you libs dream up excuses for them..
thank u-
Diamond
The republican administrations line over on iraq the years has nothing to do with humanity.Diamond
in 1988 when saddam gassed his own ppl the reagan administration didn't even condemn the action.
in 1991 the bush adiministration failed to heed the pleas of the kurds and Shia's and left them out to dry in iraq.
and to be honest....I've said this before..the administration has NO clue why they are invading iraq
is it because of alqaeda.....no..they can't prove it
Wmd's....if saddam had Wmd's..they wouldn't invade..it's why were not invading korea
humanitarian reasons???....well...there were humanitarian issues in the early 90's....other than establish no fly zones....the Bush admin did jack
The bush admin has not given me one hard reason for me to believe that iraq is a bigger threat to national security than N korea or pakistan. ..and it's ridiculous.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
Little Star-
One step at a time.
Presently were taking care of what Hillary's husband didnt have the nuts to do..because they were in a certain intern's mouth(allegedly
according to court testimony..when he shoulda had his mind on the job..(sorry truth stings)
That said,
we will take care of Korea at the approiate time.
And we will.
This Administration is about one step at a time..not sound bites and blow jobs.
And then covering up the bjs..
Sorry to inform you,we dont have to oust Saddam because of a link to Al-Queda.
The USA doesnt have to capitulate to forien policy implemented by weak minded liberals and their focus groups..
Once you grasp that simple concept , your days will be filled w/awestruck and wonderment joy as President Bush makes the world a safer place for-
Americans
Muslims
Hindu Nations
and all civil free nations, who oppose terror..
Oh-
and hope you enjoyed the terriost training camp picture in Iraq.
Heres another Iraqi terrorist training camp-
Diamond
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Gickies Gageeze
Purgatory
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2003
- Messages
- 1,445
diamond, you do realize that with your past few posts on this page, that they symbolize the EXACT reasons why so many people around the world hate the united states?
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
Bear-
If the USA makes the world safer. We will pay that price..
Hate us now.
Thank us later.
DB9
If the USA makes the world safer. We will pay that price..
Hate us now.
Thank us later.
DB9
Rono
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
diamond said:
Yep, Gods gift to the world.
gvox
Ghost of Love
diamond said:
Are you high?
I want some.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
GabreilVox-
Gods Gift of your sexiness and intellect pales in comparison to the USA's track record of-
humanitarinism
philanthropy
good will towards all mankind
oppurtunity
personal freedoms
ect
ect
ect..
let this be understood for the record..
Diamond
Gods Gift of your sexiness and intellect pales in comparison to the USA's track record of-
humanitarinism
philanthropy
good will towards all mankind
oppurtunity
personal freedoms
ect
ect
ect..
let this be understood for the record..
Diamond
diamond said:
U.S. and U.K = GREED (just as much as anyone else)
"ditto" for U.S. and U.K. (at least under these regimes; come on what was the U.S. position for oh, how many years? And what about all the other human-rights abuses that occur daily around the world under the hands of repressive regimes and corporations like NIKE?
Where are the world's governments here? Whatever.)Man, are you sure you aren't talking about the U.S. and the Bush administration? I mean, you know, the folks who will profit millions from all the new oil and other contracts resulting from the Iraqi war? Because it should be well known by now, after all it's flatly documented evidence. Is it just a matter of wearing blinders because the truth hurts? Fantasy-land is nice?
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
Spinsters from the left grit ther teeth and can now only pray.
thank u-
Diamond
thank u-
Diamond
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
im going to bed.
im tired of kicking all your back-sides this evening
thank u
DB9
goodnite
im tired of kicking all your back-sides this evening
thank u
DB9
goodnite
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