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Old 01-16-2003, 04:42 AM   #1
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Rumsfeld: Lack of evidence could mean Iraq's hiding something

No, the thread title is not a joke from The Onion or some satire site - it's an actual headline on CNN.com - Rumsfeld: Lack of Evidence.... Does anybody else find this funny in a disturbing sort of way?

More from our peace-loving Defense Secretary:
Quote:
"The fact that the inspectors have not yet come up with new evidence of Iraq's WMD program could be evidence, in and of itself, of Iraq's noncooperation," Rumsfeld said.
Excuse me? So...what you're saying is, if you find something, then you'll use that as an excuse to go to war with Iraq, and if you don't find anything, then you'll use that as an excuse to go to war with Iraq?

Interesting.
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Old 01-16-2003, 04:57 AM   #2
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they really are getting fucking desperate now.
it's like not allowing cops to search your house without a warrant. YOU MUST BE HIDING SOMETHING! like your right to not be searched without a warrant! DOH.

why doesn't the U.S send undercover russian scientists and attempt to sell Iraq some WMD's and declare iraq an enemy as soon as they cross the border! entrapment ahoy!
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Old 01-16-2003, 06:00 AM   #3
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Hans Blix is saying essentially the same thing.

I thought the point was that Iraq was in 1998 known to possess forbidden material that they're supposed to show UNMOVIC that they have already disposed of or will dispose of immediately.

1998 was when UNSCOM inspectors left Iraq, frustrated by a lack of cooperation on the part of the Iraqi government.

The forbidden material includes at least 1.5 tons of VX nerve agents, growth media for 20,000 liters of biological warfare agents, 15,000 shells for use in biological warfare and 6,000 chemical warfare bombs, according to the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2590265.stm
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Old 01-16-2003, 06:56 AM   #4
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I love how a quote can be taken out of the context of the conversation.

#1 Iraq had the stuff in 1998
#2 Iraq kicked out the people who were there to make sure it was destroyed.
#3 Iraq is supposed to prove it was destroyed.
#4 Iraq has not explained nor given any evidence to show what happened to the WMD.

#5 Rumsfeld makes his statement.....makes a good headline......it gets twisted into something it is not.





White House promises 'smoking gun intelligence'
By Toby Harnden in Washington
(Filed: 16/01/2003)


White House officials have reassured Republicans by signalling that America and Britain are prepared to release powerful intelligence evidence to cement the case for war against Iraq.

Andy Card, the White House chief of staff, and Karl Rove, President George W Bush's chief political strategist, have each indicated privately that the administration has proof that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.

Mr Card received blunt warnings from conservative Republican senators last week that Mr Bush had to produce a much more concrete case for war if he hoped to keep public support.

Senator Kit Bond of Missouri said more information should be released and asked: "What is the connection between Iraq and al-Qa'eda?" According to sources at the private meeting, Mr Card is understood to have urged him: "Don't worry."

Mr Rove is believed to have used similar language during private briefings to politicians in Washington.

He strongly suggested that the Bush administration already possesses a piece of intelligence from the CIA or MI6 that would amount to the "smoking gun" critics are calling for.
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Old 01-16-2003, 07:05 AM   #5
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Re: Rumsfeld: Lack of evidence could mean Iraq's hiding something

Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


Excuse me? So...what you're saying is, if you find something, then you'll use that as an excuse to go to war with Iraq, and if you don't find anything, then you'll use that as an excuse to go to war with Iraq?

Interesting.


From your own article it clarifies his position and that of the United States very clearly. If you want to take to quote and twist it that is fine.

"Rumsfeld said the United States and the United Nations have no obligation to prove that Iraq has continued efforts to develop nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. Instead, he said, Iraq must prove that it has abandoned them."

You may not agree with the position. I have said I am not for war without the UN unless Bush can make a compelling case. I can respect that. I really have little respect fo things taken out of context the way this thread does.

If you have been reading the news for the past few weeks, you would not have taken the quote completely out of context and twisted it to support your anti-war agenda. His quote is completely consistent with the posisiton that US has held from the start of this. The evidence is there that the weapons existed in 98 and nothing has been shown to prove what happened to the stuff. Geee, ya think it could be hidden after 5 years?
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Old 01-16-2003, 08:46 AM   #6
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Well, I shall await the "smoking gun" evidence.

Remember: the ideal window to attack Iraq this year doesn't end until March methinks...

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Old 01-16-2003, 06:09 PM   #7
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So far discovered today in Iraq

Missile Parts......arrived in Iraq sometime in 2000-2001 that were illegal.

11 warheads empty and a 12th that they are not saying much about.


Hmmmmm......


Now we have a state larger than CA and 100 inspectors with 8 helecopters to move around in and they found the "Needle in the Haystack"

Want to bet they find more?


Peace
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Old 01-16-2003, 06:26 PM   #8
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Those war heads weren't for illegal chemicals - Saddam uses them to sprinkle cocoa powder on his enemies' lattes.
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Old 01-16-2003, 06:52 PM   #9
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Um, weren't those 'warheads' that they found actually thought to be circa 1980s and imported? Imported from where?? If those warheads have "made in the USA" stamped on them, that's pretty damn hypocritical. What did the supplier intend for the Iraqis to do with them, make palm tree planters out of them?

I recall back in the other Bush war when someone said, perhaps rather satirically: (paraphrased) 'but of course we know they have them, we just had to check the reciepts...yep, we shipped them there allright so they must have them'
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Old 01-16-2003, 07:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
Um, weren't those 'warheads' that they found actually thought to be circa 1980s and imported? Imported from where?? If those warheads have "made in the USA" stamped on them, that's pretty damn hypocritical. What did the supplier intend for the Iraqis to do with them, make palm tree planters out of them?
Careful with your facts, buddy.

"The warheads were in excellent condition and were similar to ones imported by Iraq during the late 1980s," Mr Ueki said in Baghdad on Thursday.
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Old 01-16-2003, 07:26 PM   #11
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Lets not get carried away here speedracer. Nothing of what I said was stated as fact.

I said, they were 'thought to be circa 1980s and imported'...that is what was repeated to me on the idiot box that reported this 'find' to me today, just like everyone else's information.

I can tell you one thing that IS fact though: warheads, missile parts etc etc change over a 20 year span, and most are in many ways unique in design and materials to the country that exported them and the time span they were produced. Not only that, but if a fully trained weapons inspection team deems a missile component to be 'similar' to something they've been trained to recognize, its safe to assume that they aren't too far off the mark in their analysis of said missile component.
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Old 01-16-2003, 08:45 PM   #12
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gabrielvox,

Do you know what you're talking about regarding specifications of warheads? I know nothing about the subject, so I have to take you at your word here. No doubt STING will want to insert his $.02.

It's entirely possible that those warheads came from France or the USSR, too.

But assuming the worst--that those warheads are labeled "General Electric" or "Boeing" or "Philips," I don't see why this precludes the US from demanding that Iraq disarm in the manner prescribed by the UN, and the UN has been very clear that the onus is upon Iraq to destroy its WMD materials or tell UNMOVIC where they're keeping their stash so that UNMOVIC can dispose of it.

People bring up the US support for Iraq vs. Iran in the 1980s as if it compels the US to pretend like Iraq is still its ally, and I've never understood it. Once you create a monster, the proper thing to do is to tame or destroy it, not to pretend it doesn't exist, right?
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Old 01-16-2003, 09:26 PM   #13
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Speedracer,

Im not going to argue with you because I already told you I initially was not making a factual statement but a personal opinion (like 99.9% of alot of the commentary on here). What I did state as fact about missile design and origin IS fact.

My "made in the USA" stamp comment was a simplified statement. Quite obviously I dont expect a literal Made In The USA stamp to be emblazoned on these warheads. Nor would I expect to see a Made In USSR or Made In France or Made In China or Made in Boston stamp. And in my reply to you I don't know if you noticed but I was very careful not to state that they came from the US.

HOWEVER, when all the facts are known, given that A. the US DID export arms to Iraq and B. that it is expected that the warheads were imported, I would not at all be surprised to find out they came from an American arms factory in some way or form. Maybe not, granted.

You wonder why people keep coming back to that fact, that the US supplied arms to a dictatorship...perhaps from inside it looks like the two countries were 'allies', although that in itself is a troubling concept given that one of them is supposed to be democratic and one is a dictatorship, but to the outside world it looks like another example of US foreign policy gone horribly wrong. It's becoming somewhat of a recurring theme now isn't it? How many more madmen/countries are going to pop up with origins connected to the US somehow?

Of course overshadowing all this is of course the fact that Iraq probably feels it has a right to arm itself just like any other country in the world, including its close neighbors.

Anyways my final comment as Ive stated on other boards is that until I see Iraq even close to having the capability to deliver a missile to Allied soil, the US has no business in the Middle East. Isreal alone could pummel (not to mention nuke) the living hell out of Iraq in the blink of an eye. For all we know, Iran probably could too.
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Old 01-17-2003, 12:47 AM   #14
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Gabrielvox,

It is not a "fact" that the USA exported weapons to Iraq in the 1980s. Any look at Iraqi weapons tables will show that 80% of Iraq's military weapons came from the Soviet Union. The rest came from China mainly with smaller numbers from South Africa, Germany and France. My sources come from the International Institute for Strategic Studies based in London and is supported by multiple other sources.

Iraq did recieve intelligence from US satellites, food, trucks, and transport helicopters from the USA. But Iraq did not recieve US weapons. US military forces did not encounter any US weapons in the 1991 Gulf War.

Iraq does have a few US made tanks and artillery that were captured from Iran in the Iran/Iraq War in the 1980s. It is true that Iran used to be a Client state of the USA before the Shah was overthrown.

But if you think I am wrong, please list the name of the US weapon system and quantity that you believe was sold to Iraq and the source of your information.

By the way, Iraq has Scud missiles that can reach several US allies in the region.
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Old 01-17-2003, 04:17 AM   #15
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this will be interesting nevertheless.
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