Ronald Reagan Mark II (the soap box thread)

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Be careful with your respectful posts, Melon. I'm actually starting to like you. I may disagree with a lot of what you say, but at least you say it well. It takes a lot of honesty and maturity to admit that you feel conflict at this time. From someone who's as far on the liberal side as you appear to be, your ability to "discuss" while remaining respectful is to be commended.

No, that post was not directed at you. The separate thread for "discussion" on Reagan was a good idea, and unfortunately it has turned for the worse.

What is the most offensive is those who feel the need to be disrespectful in both threads. I'm all for free speech and the ability to express your thoughts, but I think we all need to keep an eye on our timing. Knowing when to say what is the main thing that keeps one from looking like an a**. Normally I wouldn't have responded to something like this, but I felt like this was a time to speak. Regardless of policies or politics or decisions that may or may not have resulted in what has been said here, there is no excuse for disrespecting a man so close to his death.
 
I was once more partisan than this, but once I became disillusioned with the inaction of the Democratic Party, I started to look at the bigger picture. People who know me will realize that I do tend to think way outside of the box...and to the degree that I don't think "outside the box" like everyone else (if that makes any sense).

Regardless of what I think about Reagan's specific policies (many of which I disagree with, particularly with the way he redefined how inflation and unemployment figures were calculated to benefit him), I, like many, can admire the way he was unafraid to lead, forgetting about past precedent. That is the lesson that I take from him.

There may be a day where I decide that I want to run for political office, and it is this lesson that I will carry with me. I want to make a substantial difference in this nation, irrespective of the official party line. FDR did this for the Democratic Party in the 1930s, just as Reagan did it for the GOP. In the meantime, however, all I can do is continue to study up on both history and the present. Right now, I am working on entering the world of independent filmmaking, but hey...if Arnold can become governor of California, I don't think that is necessarily a liability.

I do believe that there are many reasons why people are angry at Reagan, and I have my own. However, what I have learned is that, rather than using such anger for self-destruction, I will use it for positive change. I certainly hope it pays off in the end.

Melon
 
I started thinking more about Reagan. I still don't like him as a president, but he does deserve credit for opening relationships
with the Soviet Union. ( Nixon did the same thing with China)
And we were very lucky Gorby was in the Soviet Union at the
time.
Guess it takes a Republican to break the ice with communist
countries.
( The Dems may have been too scared, politically scared, that they would've been viewed as being soft on communism. )
My dislike of Reagan dates back to when he was governor
of California. Disliked his politics then, and as a prez.
if I had to choose between Reagan or Bush,
I'd go with Reagan. At least Reagan had something in the
way of intellect.
And I got to admit, Reagan was fun to watch on TV.
I usually didn't agree with what he said, but he was
amusing.
So, what the heck.......RIP Ronnie.
 
There may be a day where I decide that I want to run for political office
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I'm not sure if I'd vote for you; I'd have to hear some more of your stances before I'd throw my lot. But, your comments give me hope for the future of politics. It is my prayer that the our generation will learn from the evil of blind, partisan politics and make something better than the senseless garbage we have today.
 
Why is it so bad to say bad things about someone after they're dead? I mean, they're dead. I wouldn't say bad things about someone who died to their loved ones' faces but I don't get the tiptoeing around otherwise. I guess I just see death differently than a lot of people. It's completely natural and always hard to lose someone but I don't suddenly get sentimental about people I never liked just because they died. It's not like I'm glad they're dead either, I guess I just don't care one way or the other. :shrug:
 
I too have changed my political views drastically since Reagan was president. I didn't like the guy's policies, but I now understand that I didn't appreciate that, like melon said, he wasn't afraid to lead. While he didn't overthrow the Communist totalitarian dictators by himself, he certainly played a role in that wonderful turn of events. I am happy that the people of countries like Poland, the Czech Republic, the former East Germany and Bulgaria are free. Time was when I never thought I'd see it. They groaned under oppressive dictatorships. I still don't like everything he did but I like the way he wasn't narrowly partisan, and I think all politicians can learn from this.
 
joyfulgirl said:
Why is it so bad to say bad things about someone after they're dead? I mean, they're dead.
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To me, it's just a basic form of human decency and honor.

I'm not saying never say anything bad about somebody who happens to be dead, but to jump right in before the body is even buried and list everything you hated about the person is just plain wrong. I can't understand anyone not having enough compassion or conscience not to see that. :(

But worst of all is using someone's death as a chance to bring up everything negative you could possibly say about them is one of the lowest things I've ever heard of. It's like a 'ding dong the witch is dead' mentality. This goes for everyone, regardless of politics or even if they are famous or not. I have also been disgusted at people I know in real life trashing their husband as soon as he's dead. I know one lady who still trashes him on a daily basis 10 years later. He's dead, what more do you want?
 
joyfulgirl:

I have no problem if somebody tells bad things about dead people, no difference to me compared to say bad things about living people.
But i know that some people have problems with it and that's why i don't do it, because i respect their feelings and i have no interest in offending people just because they think different.
 
U2Kitten said:


To me, it's just a basic form of human decency and honor.

I'm not saying never say anything bad about somebody who happens to be dead, but to jump right in before the body is even buried and list everything you hated about the person is just plain wrong. I can't understand anyone not having enough compassion or conscience not to see that. :(
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You took what I said to a whole other level. I didn't say anything about listing everything you hate before the body is buried, nor did I even mention the word hate. I just think it's worse to say negative things about people while they're alive than after they're dead. And I haven't said anything about Reagan one way or the other.
 
Klaus said:
joyfulgirl:

I have no problem if somebody tells bad things about dead people, no difference to me compared to say bad things about living people.
But i know that some people have problems with it and that's why i don't do it, because i respect their feelings and i have no interest in offending people just because they think different.
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That I can appreciate. :up: Thanks.
 
joyfulgirl said:


You took what I said to a whole other level. I didn't say anything about listing everything you hate before the body is buried, nor did I even mention the word hate. I just think it's worse to say negative things about people while they're alive than after they're dead. And I haven't said anything about Reagan one way or the other.
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I wasn't talking about you, only answering the question based on things I had seen in this thread and experienced in other places.
 
joyfulgirl said:
Why is it so bad to say bad things about someone after they're dead? I mean, they're dead. I wouldn't say bad things about someone who died to their loved ones' faces but I don't get the tiptoeing around otherwise. I guess I just see death differently than a lot of people. It's completely natural and always hard to lose someone but I don't suddenly get sentimental about people I never liked just because they died. It's not like I'm glad they're dead either, I guess I just don't care one way or the other. :shrug:
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I agree with you joyful :up:
 
I suppose it has something to do with common decency and respect for human life. But then these things are rapidly slipping away in this enlightened society. I can't help feeling that you individuals that are questioning society's general rule of allowing some period of grace and respect for a recently deceased individual, would not be doing so if the president had been of a different political party, and I find that incredibley sad. Yes, death is a natural thing, but shouldn't love for a fellow human being also be? Is is so hard (or wrong) to acknowledge just for these moments in the wake of his passing, the good things accomplished by this man, even if the good are outnumbered? The sort of hatred that has been spewed here so soon after his death, in our society, is reserved only for the most reprehensible of criminals......people like Hitler, Hussein, Manson....I cannot bring myself to believe that President Reagan deserves to be classed with these individuals.
 
Well, I guess I'm just repeating things that have already been said.......I really don't mean to step on any toes, I'm just saddened and at a loss to understand the reactions that some have had at this man's death. :(
 
I think Wolfeden has stated somewhere in one of these threads that he/she (sorry I don't know your gender, Wolfeden) hopes none of us ever understand why he/she is of this opinion. I think it's a very valid perspective.
 
maude said:
I suppose it has something to do with common decency and respect for human life. But then these things are rapidly slipping away in this enlightened society. I can't help feeling that you individuals that are questioning society's general rule of allowing some period of grace and respect for a recently deceased individual, would not be doing so if the president had been of a different political party, and I find that incredibley sad. Yes, death is a natural thing, but shouldn't love for a fellow human being also be? Is is so hard (or wrong) to acknowledge just for these moments in the wake of his passing, the good things accomplished by this man, even if the good are outnumbered? The sort of hatred that has been spewed here so soon after his death, in our society, is reserved only for the most reprehensible of criminals......people like Hitler, Hussein, Manson....I cannot bring myself to believe that President Reagan deserves to be classed with these individuals.


Well, I guess I'm just repeating things that have already been said.......I really don't mean to step on any toes, I'm just saddened and at a loss to understand the reactions that some have had at this man's death.
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I completely agree with you Maude. It's about decency and respect for life. Some people are just cold that way. I also find it interesting that some of the same people who are pushing the it's okay to speak ill of the dead thing are some of the staunches pro-abortion people too, again, just no tenderness or respect when it comes to the value of a life. It hurts me to see such callousness. I don't care how much somebody dislikes a person or their 'valid' reasons for it, there is a time and place for everything and that time is not as soon as the person has died. We will all die someday, and we will all have somebody who doesn't like us, but this shouldn't happen to anyone. I am more disgusted by such things than any of the Reagan haters could possibly be for whatever it is they personally blame him for that probably wasn't all his fault anyway.

Just when I get discouraged and am ready to lose faith in all humanity I see someone like you, Maude, come forward with your feelings and I try not to give up.
 
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BluberryPoptart:
I understand your points but it's not better speaking in that manner when they are still living.

--- eddited to add:

Every FYMer can imagine that Mr. Reagan and i didn't have the same political philosophy but what i liked about Mr. Reagan was his great sense of humor

Here's my favourite:

Mr. Reagan during a Microphone test in 1984

My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes.
Click to expand...
 
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Thanks Klaus. I loved Reagan's sense of humor also. Even when he was infuriating me in a policy speech, I always laughed at his jokes. While I never supported the guy's political objectives I think there were good things about the guy that I was unable to appreciate when he was president due to my personal political views. I think alot of people here are in basic agreement with this. I understand about respect for the dead. I lost one of my best friends Friday night. We all loved this friend, but if there was anyone in the area who didn't you'd better believe they are biting their lip. Someone made a web site dedicated to her, a scribe is going to take 100 hours of work to make a memorial scroll, and people from all over are attending her funeral services today. I can't do this unfortunately, it's in another town and I have to put my car in the shop. It's a period of delicate, hurt feelings and it's better not to affect these feelings when they are absolutely ruling your emotions. That's what happens when you lose a loved one, and respect for the dead is really all about the loved one's family and friends, and respecting how they feel. It's not easy. Just my purple tuppence's worth.
 
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I dreaded this event, because I knew there'd be media saturation. There are other things, equally important, going on. RIP and all, but let's get back to the business of the living as soon as we can.
 
maude said:
I suppose it has something to do with common decency and respect for human life. But then these things are rapidly slipping away in this enlightened society. I can't help feeling that you individuals that are questioning society's general rule of allowing some period of grace and respect for a recently deceased individual, would not be doing so if the president had been of a different political party, and I find that incredibley sad.
Click to expand...

My opinion on this has absolutely nothing to do with Reagan's political party. In fact, I voted for him the first time. I am just mystified as to why it's more 'decent' and somehow more noble to not speak ill of the dead than it is to speak ill of the living. It is LIFE that I respect and I do also respect the pain of those who are having to deal with death as I have done many times in my life. I have lost a lot of very close friends and family members and part of my mourning process has always included honesty about the difficulties I had with these loved ones as well as their beautiful qualities. I personally think that's completely normal and what doesn't feel authentic to me is a pollyanna-type behavior/attitude around death and suddenly saying nicer things about someone after they died than when they were alive. I just don't get it, I don't get why it's not 'human decency' to say something simple like, "I couldn't stand Reagan's politics but may he rest in peace." I haven't read every post in these Reagan threads so I can't say that the kind of insensitivity you are referring to doesn't exist here, but what I've seen has been pretty reasonable.
 
U2Kitten said:


That's nice, Sting2, please post it in the other/'nice' Reagan thread:)
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It is my understanding that this thread is open to all views on Reagan, Positive and Negative, while the other thread is reserved specifically for positive views.
 
I know, and this one needs more positive views. I just thought your story deserved to be in with his tributes. :)
 
Reagan did MORE for AIDS than people give him credit for at the time. I am not saying he could not have done more as President to lead on this issue, however, he is not getting credit for what he did do, which was quite a bit based on looking at the numbers of dollars he put towards it, at a time when there was very little medical knowledge to go on to fight this epidemic.
 
I will agree that death doesn't change a person. This event is not going to change history's verdict of Reagan. The people who want to blast him will continue to do so. But that's in the long run. There's something about death, and the rituals surrounding it, that *temporarily* glorifies a person. I mean, heck, sometimes the prices on an artist's work start going up the damn *day* of his death. While this really stinks, because we'd rather get paid when we're alive, needless to say :censored: :censored: it's emblematic of life and death as a whole, and the way people look at this sequence of events. It's true for a former president, and it's true of anyone with a "following" of significance.
 
I don?t have respect for every one who has passed away. I do not want to offend, so forgive my disrespect.

Without bothering to read all the great comments about respect and passing away, this separation of threads again seems weird to me. Like apartheid in words. Put the black comments there, and put the white comments there. Segregation.

In my eyes, Reagan was a killer. I hope now he?s burning in hell, as he deserves to feel a little part of the pain he is responsible for.

Go ahead flame me. I?m a fighter. This man was one of my enemies. That bitch Thatcher is still alive.

Anyway... Blessings to all you good people who are gonna flame me for their principles. You got a good heart. Keep it.
 
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